I've been doing magic for 2 1/2 years as a kid (12yrs old now) and am wondering if I am pass* beginner yet for card magic. I can do well the classic pass, The hermanns pass, the spread cull, the overhand shuffle control, false cuts (I'm learning the undo cut now by Andi Gladwin!),slip cuts, gamblers cop and all the basic sleight of hand. I am currently working on my zarrow shuffle and second deal. Do you think I'm passed beginner yet?
Thanks,
Hudson




*not the move, lol.

I'd say you're still a beginner magician because you seem to be very focused on your card techniques (which is a great thing). However, card techniques alone do not create magic. You need to take the tools you've developed and create magic with them. Otherwise you're just a card mechanic. Creating a magical effect requires a different skill set and you should be honing that skill set along side your card techniques.

Check out this interview. It has some great things to think about. The entire video is quite interesting and in particular his discussion around the 4:27 time touches on what I wrote above.

So to turn into a better magician I have to work on my presentation and make my magic as powerful as possible?

Absolutely, what good is having a perfect pass if you can't create an effect with it? Instead of just trying to master card techniques, you should be thinking about how to master your favorite card effect. Do you have any effects you like? You should start honing your skills with an effect you already love.

I have been trying to master a monte routine called monte python by Andi Gladwin where you don't need gimmicked cards and you don't mix up the cards. The only thing is, when I performed this to my sister, she deliberately messed the routine up. That's why monte routines are difficult to perform to hecklers. Should I still work on this effect?

It's tough with hecklers especially if it's your sister deliberately trying to mess you up. I think you should continue to work on the effect. Performing is the only way to learn how to deal with difficult spectators. There's no need to shy away from hecklers or give up on a trick because of them. Just go back to the drawing board and think of ways to do it better.

Still a beginner. You are still focusing on the tricks rather than the performance it seems.

What is your definition of beginner? (card magic)
What is your criteria that YOU are grading yourself on?

If in terms of "just sleights" as you described, then you are definitely past beginner stage. If in terms of being able to use those sleights in an entertaining and magical presentation
then yes you are a novice and a Newby. (Beginner)

You can know guitar chords or finger poitions on a piano. But without a song for people to enjoy, what do you have?

All of you guys have gave me such useful feedback. I think that now that I know that knowing sleights is not just how a magician should know, but how to perform as well. I guess it's just kind of hard knowing how to approach people as they might look down on me as I am only 12yrs. Do you guys know what I should do?

It has do allot with your personality and attitude. Wanting to share something they might enjoy as opposed to "look what I can do"

I don't know your personality but I've learned in my career performing that kindness, respect
and just being likeable goes a long way.
If people look down on you that's on them. Don't give them that power to stop you from doing what you obviously enjoy.

Maybe volunteering at an independent living
community. There are lots of them to hone your skills. Seek out opportunities after you have developed some routines.

I practiced Royl Road material in the past as a hobby without ever performing and found it quite satisfying to simply learn techniques. For some reason I have recently decided to "get back into magic" as a relatively old person (40s). First of all, I love your passion and focus on technique, especially at your age. Keep at it and enjoy it

I'd say young siblings are often the worst audience to perform for so I'm not surprised that your sister is a heckler. Have you tried to perform the same material for a parent or older person in general? That would be my first suggestion. Find someone more "open" to test your material on.

Lastly, as others have mentioned, focus on the performance. I think it is a very good learning experience to see the effect that "low skill" tricks that are presented well can have on people. Just like practicing technique, performance is also a skill that can be practiced.


I think you can use your age as an advantage. If you can get some support from your parents and it doesn't sound too strange for you, it could be a good idea to perform for elderly audiences as they are usually very appreciative of performances from youngsters. Over here, there's usually some meetups of retired folks that hang out, drink some coffee and have some cake. Community centers are also an option.

Glad you are being open-minded and taking some great thoughts and understanding from the great advice offered here.

As someone who has mentored hundreds of entertainers including many magicians, you have to remember your greatest strength is that you are 12 years old. You must also remember your greatest weakness is that you are only 12 years old...and still a relative newbie or beginner.


Take the time to try to really understand this as this knowledge and understanding is essential. The biggest problem with any beginner, amateur, or newbie is that they only perform for themselves, perhaps in their room or in front of a mirror, and for family and friends. I know whenever I say this I get much grief, but I have proven this to be true time and time again with those I mentor, coach consult, and train. You will never get a real, true read attempting to perform for family and friends. The only thing they are even slightly good for is that they are a human to with with rather than an imaginary audience or volunteer.

You're not being taken seriously not because you are only 12, but because you are just executing the magic you do. You haven't matured in your mindset, thinking, approach or execution. You, like most newbies, are focused on the mechanics and execution of them. This is perfectly normal for all amateurs and beginners in the just starting stages. It is when you take this and create a "performance" with this. Create an effect with your abilities.

I strongly disagree that the first primary thing is the magic or trick itself. Like someone said above it is your persona or personality that is most important. This often gets overlooked in books, DVDs, video, courses, etc. If you do not connect with someone they will never get the chance to accept your magic. Connection is so important. The first step to that is how you present yourself. How you look, feel, your vibe, your talk, they way you carry yourself, and the first impression you make. So many magicians do not understand this and get it wrong.

They are self-impressed with their moves, patter, and learned skills. That is really only important to you, as when performing well you should make it look effortless where they do not even think of or focus on your skills or mechanics, but become engaged and enthralled in your performance overall.

Cards are also tough. Magician's love cards. Most regular, normal people could really care less. Sure they might sit through a trick or two, but interest wanes very quickly after that, even for the most skilled professionals. Same for coins. People want to be blown away, they want to really feel and experience the magic. This comes from the performance and the performer, not the tricks, cards or coins.

Same for audiences. If you are doing street magic, walk-around, or strolling, the audience is different that one that is knowingly coming to see magic such as at a theater, nightclub, or social even where they know there is going to be magic entertainment. Expectations are quite different. The performance dynamics are very different. Magicians need to know and understand this, yet this is very overlooked and often not mentioned or taught in magic at all.

The problem with all of this, especially for beginners, is that they think like a magician. Magician's thinking has killed more magician's careers or performances than any other single element. Think like a performer, an entertainer that uses magic. Even if just a beginner or hobbyist. It matters and makes a huge difference.

In the greater picture of everything it entails to be a great magician, yes, you are still in the very early stages, a beginner. However, this is not a bad thing, it is a stating point. My advice is not to get hung up on the level you are at, or the fact that you are 12 years old, or the fact that your sister messed up your trick (you may thank her for that later) - these are all normal beginner aspects. The two things that matter most is learning properly (the right things in the right order), practice (ever hear of the 10,000 hours rule?), and gaining experience. Experience in learning properly, experience in performing for real people (not family, friends, or co-workers or you will never receive true reactions and feedback), experience in taking an idea or method for a trick and creating a "performance" around it with a specific beginning, middle, and end climax. The structure, words, flow, emotion, and movements. Some guys take years to do this. Working on it for 5 years and then deciding to change one word that makes it even better, stronger, memorable. Remember it is a process...a process with many difference pieces that all must work together in harmony to be most effective. Magic is many thing, much more than just tricks.

There is still so much you have yet to learn, experience, or get to. So yes, you are only 12. Embrace it. You may still even be considered a beginner 10 years from now when you are 22. It not about age or how long you've been doing this, it is about your progress, understanding the bigger picture, and having a clear understanding of what you want to achieve and where you want to go with this. Many people never want to evolve beyond a beginner or amateur, that's fine too.

So when coming here asking for thoughts and advice, it is best to first let us know what your intentions are, where you are trying to go with all of this, what is your dream with this? Then we can better assist you once we have that understanding. Clarity makes everything easier, better, and more rewarding in so many aspects.

Glad you are here asking these questions, I hope you are and remain open-minded, glad you are open to learning, growing and evolving. Don't allow yourself to get offended, upset, discouraged, frustrated, or unmotivated. Magic is only the vehicle you use, the rest comes from you. It can be whatever you want it to be which is why thinking about your greater vision allows you to see where you are at, want to go, and then begin to seek the best way to get there. Best of luck to you!

Thanks Mindpro for that great comment!! What my intentions are is I am trying to be a professional sleight of hand magician like Alex Pandrea or Andi Gladwin. I want to fool Penn and Teller and perform all over the world. I live in Australia but I want to go to Britain or USA to be closer to magicians. I also want to perform in Vegas. The magic I want to learn is Card, Coin, Everyday magic, And perhaps a little bit of mentalism but I still want to keep cards as my main as I feel very connected with them. The thing is, I have never performed to real people before besides family and close friends. Anyone think they can help me in fulfilling my passion and turning from a card mechanic to a magician/performer?
thanks!!

What a great post Mindpro!

Howdy Hudson, you are looking up to some talented folks, Andi is among the best. Pay attention
to what Mindpro writes, he knows what he's talking about and has been in the business a long time.

I will say it might not be best to look at it as some sort of graduation system like belts in
Judo. Fact is having the ability to entertain folks with a key card will often serve you far better
than most dealing or poker routines performed basically.

For example, you mention you are learning zarrow and a second deal, I can do neither of
those things, and I'm not sure what I'd do if I did. Nothing wrong with being skilled, just
have a use for the skills.

You mention you feel a connection to cards, and that's a fine thing. But it's even more
important to feel a connection to your audience. Breaking down that barrier is
quite important. Your sister no doubt doesn't have a barrier at all, most family is
like that, either overly enthusiastic or not at all. Don't use them as a judge.

Let's say you could do a super impressive cardistry routine, very impressive, and it
will be amusing to your audience until they get distracted. But lets say you do
an "anniversary waltz" style routine where two signed cards become one.

And those two cards belonged to a couple or newlyweds, this will likely be much
more impactful to your crowd than just watching you do fancy neat stuff, why? Because
with the second one they have a reason to care.

Giving your audience a reason to care is a worthwhile effort.

Thanks Fedora, I love how everyone who has been responding so far has been extremely helpful! Thanks!

Thanks for sharing your interest and goals with us. It helps us to be able to better help you. As I stated above this is all a process and it takes time, effort, practice, and commitment. Just so you know, I live and have performed in Las Vegas for years. Besides being an entertainer and entertainment business coach, consultant, and trainer, I also own several entertainment agencies, am an international talent broker, and own my own production company, and have regularly worked with magicians on al levels for over 35 years. While I don't think you will be able to try to fool Penn & Teller anymore, you certainly can enjoy where magic can take you if you are serious, committed, and learn the business side to being a magician, performer, and entertainer.

You likely will not truly understand this now, but I will tell you that success in magic/entertainment is created in the business behind your magic/performance. I know that at your age you are focused on the magic, tricks, and execution, but just please remember what I have just said. As I tell my coaching students print it out and put it up on your wall as you will need to know this before you can ever start to reach your goals.

Like you, I was 12 years old when I started performing publicly. I became a professional at 15 so I really understand your interest. I, like you, had mapped out my own set of specific goals (in order) and was really proud when I started accomplishing them one by one as I would check them off of my master list. They weren't easy goals but they also weren't impossible goals either. I started wanting to perform publicly, then I wanted to start performing for pay. I wanted to become known locally in my area for being this entertainer from my home town. I wanted to be on radio and television, I wanted to perform at local festivals and fair events in my home area (within an hour radius), I had always wanted to perform at the big theater in my area (1244 seats), I wanted to tour, I wanted to make a million dollars with my performing, I wanted to work with celebrities, I wanted to produce my own show at my own venue, etc. As I achieved each of these new goals also come along. One of them for me was to teach, train, coach, and even represent different types of performers, celebrities, and of course including magicians. It was all possible for me through entertainment, but it all required knowledge, training, and experience in entertainment business. That is what made it all happen.

Since you know your direction, start working towards achieving each item on your goal sheet. Don't try to rush it or fake it as one of the best lessons you can learn early in performing, business, especially entertainment business is you can't fake experience. Knowledge comes from experience.

Magic is only your product, what you do, but what you do with it comes for the business side behind it. I always suggest working on both simultaneously. From the hundreds of artists I have worked with this is the one single lesson they all had regrets with is not learning this and starting this early enough. Also, every one of them had to at some point stop their progress and go back and learn this in order for them to start having any real progress and eventual success.

I am so excited for you. Always keep perspective, the right perspective. You are only 12-years-old, so don't (and never regardless of your age) compare yourself to someone else. I have coached and consulted kid performers on America's Got Talent, and other similar talent competition shows, I have helped magicians create their shows, I've produced magic shows, put together their tours, create their own venues or theaters, and also create their own Broadway and Las Vegas shows here in the U.S. Set your sights on things that are possible for a 12- year-old.

To achieve any of this you must always have the proper understanding and the right perspective. Are your parents supportive of your magic interests and goals?

My parents are not overly supportive of my magic interests and goals. They seem to think that the likely hood of being a professional magician is extremely unlikely and therefor I should not try. They believe that getting good grades (which I do get) is the only way to achievement. It frowns on me a lot of successful magicians had very supportive parents for their goals and makes me feel that since I do not have supportive parents for my magic, I won't achieve my goals. They only let me do magic on weekends as well! (Although I secretly practice when they are busy!).
Thanks,
Hudson

I figured they wouldn't be as that is not surprising. And in reality, they shouldn't be. One of the main things you will learn in becoming a professional magician is as I said above, is perspective or perception. You MUST understand and operate from the perspective and perception of others, not your own. Most magicians do not get this which is why many never pass being an amateur.

You have to understand their perception or perspective. They (your parents), as most people, do not think of or consider magic as a career or profession. That is the laymen's typical way of thinking and rightfully so. How many people do they know that have made careers out of being a magician? For most it is 0, and at best maybe a couple. Heck if you ask most people to name even a famous magician, you will rarely get past 4 or 5. Houdini, Copperfield, Blackstone, Angel, maybe Blane (as an example), depending where you are. So their perception or perspective is exactly what it should be.

As performing as a magician on any serious level we must study, learn, and know the perception of others at all times - audience, bookers that book us, committees and boards, agents, promoters, volunteers, assistants, etc. This will be a common thread throughout your performing career. It is also one of the foundational elements of the entertainment business as I mentioned above. I will tell you now, do not expect support and much encouragement or understanding form others outside the entertainment world. Your parents, sister, friends, classmates, teachers, etc. This is also why earlier I said performing for family and friends can do more harm than good as their lack of excitement and understanding can often create disappointment and discouragement to you as the magician. Having this understanding is the only way you can get to the right mindset. This is one of the advantages of you being 12 years old and you learning this now is you can do this from this point on rather than having to learn it the hard way on your own, having to face all of the problems, setbacks and obstacles this will create. Do it now as a beginner and you will never have to go back and correct bad habits later which can be so costly.

I will tel you most magician's parents are not that supportive either. Some are and were but even then not at the level the magicians wished for.

Since you're sharing so openly, I will do so too. Of course when I stared at 12 and began performing professionally at 15, my parents were our (my and my brother) first managers. They were able to call the shots, and of course we weren't 18 yet, so they had to sign the contracts and be responsible for driving us to our gigs, making sure we were conducting business properly, setting up our arrangements, setups, soundchecks, and so on. This was so difficult on us as they never did anything the way we felt it should be. They didn't understand entertainment or entertainment business. When they did attempt to conduct business it was as traditional or conventional business (example: our business card said "entertainment for all occasions." This was without any reason or purpose or any input from us as to how we wanted to be positioned, marketed, perceived, etc. They did what THEY thought was right based on what they knew (which was virtually nothing.) It only lasted a year and a half, almost two, and then it had to happen...I had to fire them! Talk about hard, difficult, and unpleasant. I could understand it as it was just a matter of business, but of course they took it personally.

We then hired another manager, of course my parents had to be involved in the the process and approve them as we were still minors. He lasted about a year and three months then we fired him and I became our manager and booked us ourselves. Soon, based on this, I started booking other acts and that led to starting my our agency.

So I know exactly what you are talking about. Don't let it discourage you. Between the time I was 12 and 18 they saw how serious I was (even more than my brother who eventually left the act) and when it came time in high school to talk about and begin to start making plans for college, they knew college wasn't for me and that, like it or not, I was determined to become a full-time performer. I did and never looked back.

This is why I say it is important to understand perception, perspective, and position yourself as you need to for your success. There will be many obstacles in your journey to success, but you can't let them prevent your path to obtaining your goals. But again as you can see this has nothing to do with magic tricks at all. It is rarely about the magic, only in the beginning then on a maintenance level as you continue.

Of course much of this may change once you parents see the determination, commitment, and of course when you start making responsible financial decisions and earning a decent income from it.

My only concern is how much you are limiting yourself only preferring to do card work and closeup. As a business decision I would suggest this is not wise based on your goals that you've shared here. If you insist it will be much harder with fewer doors open and opportunities.

I agree, do not let your magic prevent you getting and keeping good grades. School, like magic, require ste proper attention, discipline and commitment to succeed.

Thankyou so much for sharing your personal thoughts and experience Mindpro! I completely agree that it will be much harder to be limited to do close up magic. The truth is, I want to do stage magic as well. It's just that I don't know how to start doing stage magic. It often needs expensive, gigantic props and I don't know where to perform. I also like the idea of walk around magic where I can perform to many groups in one show. Parlor Magic seems quite appealing to me as well as it does not need particularly big and expensive props and is also quite intimate but can be performed to around 50 guests which are a lot more than 1-3 guests in close up magic.

I may start focusing on not just card magic, but a variety of magic such as cards, coins, impromptu and mentalism as well as that will make it easier to achieve my goals. Do you think that it is possible to learn a bigger variety of magic?

Another thing I need help on is I had never, in my whole entire life, approached a stranger to do magic for them. It seems scary, and I don't know what they would think about a 12 yr approaching them to show them some 'magic'. I'm also scared I would mess up a/the trick.

Do you think you could give me more insight on how to start approaching people, learning other types of magic and also learn to do magic other than close up?
Much thanks,
Hudson