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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3695 Posts 
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What is it that you intend to accomplish with your magic, Ken? If it accomplished everything you intended, what would that be?
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9997 Posts
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A reasonable question, except that there is no "your magic." I pretend at magic like you do, and can create astonishment or a sense of awe&wonder.
Yet, I am also a student of "inexplicable phenomena" in all settings and how people respond and make decisions. You may be hoping for a simple answer. For me, nothing about magic or peoples' fascination with it is simple. I will try and put this query in context and narrow the options. Looking only at just performance magic including conjuring, some mentalism and a few complex illusions that seem to conquer the impossible in some manner: I prefer to use Framing and Aquitments to "close the door" on their ability to reconstruct - leaving only "must be magic" in the Story Told After. But that is just technique and psychology. I prefer small audiences where I can maximize audience engagement and participation in an enhanced appreciation of performances magic. I can orchestrate the conditions where magic can happen in the mind so the observers - and give them some sense of ownership for the results. What am I trying to accomplish???? Why do I do this? Why spend many hours each week refining my art and techniques, then essential gifting away my eBooks for a pittance? I give away more ebooks to folks around the world than I sell. Why do I do that? What am I trying to accomplish in life with performance magic being a part of the communication with others? Where does magic fit in to what I want to accomplish? What am I trying to accomplish by writing eBooks with Effects, Sleight and Routines few will ever want to put in the work to master? Do I really want to accomplish anything, or just love the creative process and the "childlike glow" in an adult's eyes. I will ponder your question along those lines unless you have a refinement. Thanks for asking. Give me day or two.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3695 Posts
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I look forward to your thoughts.
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2024, Dannydoyle wrote: Bit off topic, but is prices like that normal for NYC? I saw on your website before that there was prices well over $200, that's quite a high price I must say. Not questioning the quality of your offering, but I can only imagine if I was on the other side of that conversation: "Husband, I want to go see the close-up magicians." "Now honey, remember what Dave Ramsey said, we can see Danny or send Timmy to collage, but not both." Anyway, hope you and the other folks there keep it going for a long time. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts
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This is where it very important to understand what you are talking about. No it is not "normal" for NYC or anywhere for that matter. What you are not factoring is the business behind what Danny is doing, his legacy that people are paying for, a lifetime of professional experience in venues worldwide, and all of the dynamics of both his performance and the production and business behind it.
Just FYI the $179 are the cheap seats! Some tables for Danny's show range from $2,000-$6,000 per show. So no, this is not like other closeup shows. Also this is just not for NYC as Danny has/could be doing it elsewhere too. Also, what you are probably think of when you think of closeup magic is likely much different than the reality here. This is why much of this thread is silly - anytime you have amateurs, hobbyists and beginners trying to go toe to toe with a working professional, let alone someone with Danny's heritage and legacy, it is not even a real discussion. People are talking (in way too many words to just impress themselves) who should be listening, if not taking notes. As I've always said you do not what you do not know...or how much you don't know. You really do not kwow or understand what magic is until you are performing regularly and consistently (full shows not a series of tricks) for paying audiences with expectations backed by their time and hard-earned money. Theories, ideas, opinions and feedback from those who THINK they are performing magic for those you perform for are not at all what magic, or the performance, or the experience of magic is about. Also, the conversation you offered is not at all the dialog or the way one comes to go to his show (I get you were trying to be cute, but in all seriousness that is not how those attending come to his show.) The worst thing magician's have is their own me-based thinking. It is their own worst enemy as we've seen here. |
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Sunrize New user 33 Posts
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It doesn't matter how grand a legacy you have, how many shows you've performed and sold out, how much you charge people to see your magic. If you belittle and undermine amateur performance the way I keep seeing happening here, I can't respect your position. There's not a shred of sincerity or humility in that and, quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you perform professionally or not. You can make someone's day or change someone's life with a casual performance at a coffee shop, it's besides the point whether you charge them for it or not. Of course you'll have more experience and knowledge of the context you perform in if you're a professional but that doesn't necessarily mean your views and whatnot directly apply to the other context and to tell people who hage more experience than you in their own context what's what..to undermine performers the way some of you have been doing is ridiculous. You can't have it both ways. Some of us can take our magic beyond the realms of profession and share a moment/moments with people in an everyday context and give them something special where there's no stage or applause cues or any of that. If you have something against that you are coming from a place of ego. Deny it all you like and continue to fool yourself or have the decency to share some mutual respect and be fair in your exchange on this topic. I've tried to be, in mentioning that both kinds of performance have their pros and cons and I respect both, though they achieve different things in different ways.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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You are most welcome George and thank you kindly for your thought-provoking comments. I think the documentary I mentioned above was part of a series called The Century of Self.
I got most of my card magic and patter from old books, so it is naturally dated but I think it suits me because I am old school, which is perhaps altogether a form of self-expression.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21275 Posts
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To be fair it is not my show. It is the show in am in. I am not the producer of the show.
They do all the wonderful work of selling and the entire experience. And that experience is amazing beyond anything I do. There are many others in the show as well.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21275 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2024, Fedora wrote: By the way context matters. In NYC yes everything is pretty expensive. The producers of this show do a wonderful job of creating a unique experience for the guest. It is far more than a close-up magic show. Everything tip to tail is amazing from the monument of arrival. It is what they are great at. Creating experiences. The performers and performance are top notch. The producers are absolutely committed to making this the best it can be. Without doubt the best producers I have EVER worked with. (And I worked with ME!) The show is not necessarily marketed toward bargain hunters.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21275 Posts
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Monument of arrival. HA! Moment.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21275 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2024, Sunrize wrote: Change people’s lives with a performance at a coffee shop? Ok. If you believe this is your experience than so be it. Here is the problem we run into. I have ZERO problems with amateur magicians, guys who perform at coffee shops, part time professionals or any sort of distinction. I do however begin to have a problem with somehow believing that there is no distinction between those, and professionals. The idea that there is an equivalency is just not so. Does this mean I have no shred of humanity? Does this mean I come from a place of only ego? See the ego problem is actually yours. Somehow you have to be putting yourself up equivalent to those who do other types of work. I have ZERO problems with any sorts of magicians EXCEPT those who wants to try to be more than they really are. To pretend that there is no difference is disingenuous to say the least. Are there differences in baseball players in MLB and those who play weekend softball leagues at a bar? Between Dart players on the pro circuit and those who throw in a weekly league? Karaoke singers and Broadway singers? Heck even AAA Baseball and MLB, is there a difference? Do the people who see these differences, and THOUSANDS of others lack humanity, or is it only those who think this way about magic who have ego issues? Do you see the problem with this line of thinking? It is almost exclusive to magic for some reason. Why is this so horrible to admit? Why does it create SO much angst? I mean in baseball do you know the difference in a AAA hitter at the top of his game and a MLB hitter near the average for the league? It is something like 1 extra hit every couple weeks. Is it horrible to point out the distinctions between even THAT? To pretend the differences do not exist is detrimental to say the least. Again it is self deception and it is really sad. The thing you guys don’t seem to get is that when someone says “wow you are the best magician I have ever seen”, quite often they are just saying “thank you I enjoyed that”. SO many times they have had a good experience and want to tell you. (YES it is possible/probable for amateurs to do this!) Often people at home can cook WONDERFUL meals that taste just grand and evoke some amazing responses from guests. As good as any restaurant classically trained chef. Does this put them on the same level? Ummmm no sorry. Again my question is seriously, why is that so hard to admit? And why does that mean somehow I lack humanity because I point it out. Why can’t it just be an objective fact, which it is, and everyone be happy with where they are? Why does this have to be an “ego” issue? Nobody is putting anyone down, any more than the baseball players or dart players or chefs or any of the thousands of other professions that there is NO ISSUE with the distinctions.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9997 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2024, Pop Haydn wrote: in partial answer, I offer your quote form last year - much appreciated ... "The art of magic is a sophisticated game that encourages the participants to understand the weaknesses they may have in observation and reason, not a means for imprisoning their minds in false conclusions"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9997 Posts
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Danny, above you say, "Here is the problem we run into. I have ZERO problems with amateur magicians, guys who perform at coffee shops, part time professionals or any sort of distinction. I do however begin to have a problem with somehow believing that there is no distinction between those, and professionals. The idea that there is an equivalency is just not so."
"We" do not run into a problem here --only you do. Part of that is your presumption to speak on anyone else's behalf. Every post you make indicates that you have a great problem with any view that offers options other than what you see in the mirror. Please point to any post I have made where I do not acknowledge the distinction between the experiences of a working professional magician and folks involved with magic in other ways. I readily suggest that those desiring to follow a career choice like yours should hang on your every word. There is no "equivalency" - your deserve that respect. The issue of equivalency becomes a problem when you wish to project that your opinions should have greater weight for ALL venues and types of involvement with magic. Even worse, you seem to feel that posturing yourself by attempting put other people down somehow adds credibility to your opinions. Not! On this thread, one theme is whether or not the general publics views of magic has changed over the years - and their ability to appreciate awe&wonder in a performance (my interpretation) I looked forward to you experienced opinion for the types of audience and settings in which you thrive. What we got is an identity crisis, fear and lot of false claims and assumptions. I offered a possible answer to the OP questions based on my extensive professional experience in fields other than performance magic where people's view of "impossible" has relevance. There is no "equivalency" here, I have far more experience and expertise in "understanding how people make decisions under complexity" than you or other magicians have encountered. You have the right to ignore my opinions on that subject. How I choose to perform magic effect for other is irrelevant to that question. Yet, you choose false statements, obfuscation and personal attacks based on my personal theories of small group communications using magic effects. Your entire objective seems to be "putting anyone down." Why? Yes, I am a good cook too - and have earned money from doing it (professionally). If I am preparing a meal for a hundred unknown quests I will use methods gleaned from great chefs. When I prepare a special meal for a couple guests in my home, my choice of dishes, accompanying wine and presentation is based on knowledge of that by guests like and appreciate. No great chef can help with those choices, or know how to deal with a suddenly discovered allergy or interruption (police arrived looking for missing girl and ruined the meal.) There is no equivalency - my ability to send my guests home with a memory of a great dining experience FAR EXCEEDS that of any famous chef. What people seeking food entertainment in New York are willing to pay for a meal is also irrelevant. What you don't get is that I do not want guests to say, "Best mashed potatoes I ever ate," or "You should open a restaurant." I prefer that each person goes home with a full belly and happy memories of an eventful evening shared with other people. No, I do not charge guests for meals. Some may even tell a story of how they left their cell phone in the car for three hours and survived - something they thought impossible. Is that magic? By the way, when I perform magic effects for others, I do not even care if they remember my name - only the "Real experience of magic." (not an experience of real magic) Glad your current activities are financially successful. Keep on doing what you know is best for you. It doesn't apply to what I choose to do in live at all. No equivalency.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Sunrize New user 33 Posts
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Well said. There is a distinction obviously, nobody is saying there isn't. That's my whole point. Some of you are saying "pipe down, amateurs, listen to those that do shows and are professionals, they know more". Yes they do.. about their context. We know more about our context, that's my whole point. You can't have it both ways. That you know about the environment you work in best but we don't know ours, you know our environment that we work in best as well. I'm not equating what I do to what you guys do, I've explicitly discussed the differences and I commend you for your work, I'm just saying that instead of you sharing that kind of respect for what we do I keep hearing our work being downplayed and degraded and unjustly so. I'm exhausted with you misrepresenting what I'm saying and sharing your colourful metaphors to argue against a point I'm not even making.. there is a difference. Yes, the levels are different. Yes, I probably wouldn't have the know how to pull off the best show today, but I don't want to. You're not pointing out the difference like I am, you're just downplaying amateur performers and it's not fair. An amateur trying to do what you guys do would likely fail horribly but that's not his thing. A pro stepping into the environment that I perform in would also fail, what's your point? What you're saying isn't objective fact, it's out of a place of looking down on something you don't understand but think you do and feeling that we're speaking on something we need professional experience in. I say it's an ego issue because that's what it seems like to me, you're blatantly putting down our performance and acting as if you aren't. Do you even know how we work in a casual environment? You can't just burst into script or wait for your applause cues to save you. I'd wager there's a lot of things you don't understand and funsway, although I don't know a lot about the guy, is making the same point as me. I genuinely would like to see where either of us said there's no distinction between what we do and what you do. Having professional experience by no means gives you the right to claim you know better than people performing in a completely DIFFERENT space than yourself, or to put them down for it.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9997 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 1, 2024, Pop Haydn wrote: I have decided this is not an appropriate thread for this kind of question. Open a new thread on "What are your objectives in performing live magic effects" and I will post there. My many free Ebooks and previous posts explain most of what I feel about the type of magic I perform. Or, send me an email ken@eversway.com fro good discussion. This question, as posed, makes assumptions and has a biased view that precludes a simple answer. I am sure you have no hidden purpose for asking, but ... by Danny's sports/cooking analogy, you might have asked "Since you are a good cook, what snacks are you going to prepare for guests during the Super Bowl?" to show the impossibility of answering such a question, I offer an imaged post series FOR FUN! A magical discussion … ?? What snacks are you planning on preparing for guests during the Super Bowl? Ken: I am not going to watch the Super Bowl. Tommy – football is a poor name for the sport and soccer players should never wear red socks. Danny – don’t you have any friends? I got 400 Christmas cards last year. Mindpro – I coached an NFL team once, but can’t tell you who because of confidentiality. Newguy – check Redit for good TV repair places. ?? Why don’t you like football? Ken: I do, just can’t set aside five hours to watch a one-hour game. Mindpro – you were probably just betting on the wrong team. Danny – only a sportscaster can tell you how to make guacamoles. Tommy – isn’t that Sunday a National Holiday over there? ?? Which team will you be rooting for? Buy a jersey yet? Ken: I do not even know who is playing. Danny: as you are from out West originally, you must like the 49’ers. That would be a mistake because I now work in New York. Different newguy: what ever happened to Pop Warner? Tommy – more people die from eating avocados that at soccer matches. Mindpro – none of you understand locker-room psychology. ?? What is your objective in watching a baseball game alone? Ken: I will be painting my living room that day. Tommy – the ancient Greeks had slaves. Mindpro – you may need a color-coordination specialist. Never paint alone or you may get splatters in the snack tray. Danny – why fix your own snacks when you can buy them for 300/lb from a professional weightlifter? Baseball players do not know how to fold pretzels. ?? I just wondered why you prefer baseball to football. How can you cook and paint at the same time? Can’t your friends help over half-time? Just for fun ...
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3695 Posts
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Okay.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21275 Posts
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So word salad. Ken you sure like to see yourself type.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21275 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2024, Sunrize wrote: There is really a lot in here. One thing though you seem to let being offended change your perception. Nobody is putting anyone down, that is your perception. So I have a suggestion. You say there is no equivalency . Can we start with that step? Common ground. Complete agreement on the issue and no misconceptions.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9997 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 2, 2024, Dannydoyle wrote: and you obviously enjoy reading it. Glad to be able to entertain you.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Posted: Feb 1, 2024 07:07 pm 