But when you take away the audience part, which when they become other than necessary for your goals, it is hardly performance is it?

I mean it is like a chef not caring if food is edible. It is ridiculous and when that becomes the norm and when one redefines an art to suit themselves and their own limited perspective it isn’t productive.

Isn’t it the magician’s job to create the perception of magic with every effect that he performs?

are you saying that a table of six people at a wedding reception is not an audience?

Instead, there are opportunities for audience engagement not possible for stage or close-up work.

I like to change every spectator into an active participant in some way. Why does that make me less of a magician in your eyes?
Since magic occurs in the minds of the observer, why can't you accept the possibility that their experience and enjoyment can be enhanced by caring about what they expect or appreciate?

For example, I have one routine with three openings, three middle effect sequences and three ending all well practiced and using the same objects.
Thus, I have 27 different presentations available, and can decide on which to use based on audience reactions, comment and attention discovered during the performance.
I can also Stop, Reschedule or Branch to an entirely different type of entertainment if indicated. Of course, like you, I can also change rhythm, volume and gestures as appropriate.

What frightens you so much that you choose projection, false statements and personal attacks over reasoned suggestions or answered questions?

Danny, you have a formula that works for you - great! Why try and limit the possibilities for others? They cannot be you. You cannot be them either.

Lighten up! No one is attacking you.

one of the best thoughts you have ever posted

I simply don't understand what you're saying, Danny. Take away the audience part? Who's taking them away, where are they going? How are they becoming other than necessary for our goals? My whole point has been that in the environment we're talking about you are able to give them MORE. The magic can be much more suited and personal to them and that we can care even more about what might be best for them as opposed to having a set to get through or a planned show to work through. How is caring about the audience to a perhaps even greater extent suit ourselves? You spoke of misrepresented views and that's all I see you doing, sir.

If magic is created in the way that Pop describes above then I think it is almost impossible for the public to dispel it.

You said yourself that entertaining an audience and their satisfaction is not your primary concern. Or did I get that wrong?

My point was as a professional you have to worry if they get their monies worth. They have to be satisfied. You and Ken have posited, Ken in many other places than just here, when this if not your primary goal you can do “more”. So this removes an audience from the equation and puts what you are trying to do as a primary focus. The primary focus of the professional is the audience. You claim that somehow not being the primary focus means you can do more for an audience. I think this is a tough claim to back up.

I’m not trying to misrepresent anything here. I hope I came close to putting it correctly. If not please let me know. Thank you.

I said entertainment is not my main concern, that doesn't mean their satisfaction isn't. People can be satisfied and even moved by things wherein the main objective isn't to entertain. Of course I have a goal that I want to achieve and I put that before entertainment, but that goal isn't to benefit me, it still revolves around the audience just not to solely entertain. In your case, you obviously have to make sure they get their money's worth and are entertained but, outside of a professional context, the audience can still be the focus of what you want to achieve without it being just their entertainment that you are trying to provide.

So wrong, Danny - as usual. My "more" has always been audience engagement, and helping them appreciate magic more at an individual and "long-term memory" basis (what I am trying to do).

I guess if you view "audience' to mean a nameless mass of ticket buyers kept at a distance, you might be correct -
or even a jostling crowd around a close-up table .

For me and some others that "love magic' (what amateur means), every individual is important and a potential Participant, Witness, Referee or Volunteer.
The involvement and reactions of each can influence or infect the others, and all share in the gestalt energy.
I can appreciate the forest and the special trees in it. Both are "audience."

Why don't you quit trying to re-interpret what I say through so myopic lens of ""professional means making money" and try be professional about what you post.

Try posting "on the subject of XXXXXXX, I feel YYYYY" with no posturing, reference to any other person or negative comment.

I will listen and learn from your vast experience on WHAT YOU DO." I learn nothing from your skewed guesses about what others do.

I am an audience of one right now. Other readers here may be part of an audience too.
Prove that you care. Do the impossible. Tell us what you actually know about what Danny does to engage an audience.

The right hemisphere of the brain is irrational, therefore it deals with and is satisfied by the irrational stuff presented, such as the entirely irrational entertainment side of our magic.

The right hemisphere of the brain is rational, therefore it deals with and is satisfied by the rational stuff presented, such as the magic experiment, which is the entirely rational means by which the entirely irrational entertainment is proved.

For further reading see Goldilocks and the Three Bears: The moral of which is not, one should never enter into someone else's home or property without their permission.

I have nothing to prove to you. Your habit of shifting goal posts would make that impossible.

Try living in reality. Not just what you want to pretend is reality.

Correction:

The right hemisphere of the brain is irrational, therefore it deals with and is satisfied by the irrational stuff presented, such as the entirely irrational entertainment side of our magic.

The left hemisphere of the brain is rational, therefore it deals with and is satisfied by the rational stuff presented, such as the magic experiment, which is the entirely rational means by which the entirely irrational entertainment is proved.

True art is balanced to satisfy the two things equally.

Okay, this hits me.

As a professional designer for over forty years, I totally believe that "Art is about expressing yourself, while design is about solving problems." This thread has nothing to do with design, but the part about art being about expressing yourself does. So many performers of tricks nowadays seem more interested in expressing themselves than in anything else. "This is what I do, like it or not. It's art because I say it is."

Fine, some people in other fields do that and pull it off in certain circumstances; performance artists come to mind. But they accept that what they do doesn't pull everyone's chain. They don't try to shove it down peoples' throats. "Take it or leave it, I'm expressing myself."

They know who they are and what they are. So many performers of tricks don't seem to.

Here is the point. When someone comes to see our show they pay quite a bit of money. The least expensive ticket it $179. You have not bought a drink yet or gotten to the venue and so forth. So people have made a significant investment in time as well as money to see this.

Well if you believe that in some way it doesn’t matter as much what an audience experiences in this situation then I’ll have to disagree.

As performers working for audiences I believe (Yes it is only my belief.) that you have a responsibility to them. You owe them a debt that has to be repaid. They can be doing literally anything else and have consented to spend this time with you. If they don’t like the show you can talk about a refund, but you can never refund their time. When you don’t have to worry about that responsibility it is way different.

So when you say there is different things going on I disagree. No you are not being paid (Which I find a strange way to perform anyhow.) Then you still are taking their time. When you do that and still worry about what you want to do as opposed as to what they would enjoy you, again in my view, are robbing them of something you simply can not return. To me this is the worst thing you can do to others. Whenever your thoughts are more about you than them it is simply ridiculous to me. I know you “believe” you are somehow giving more to them but you really have no way to know.

I suspect that George lived in New York in the 1970s where and when he got the idea that Art is about expressing yourself.

https://thecreativeindependent.com/peopl......ression/

There is also a Curtis documentary about it somewhere.

"No you are not being paid (Which I find a strange way to perform anyhow.)"

I will provide a real-life example so that you might understand - or at least not think it too strange. It certainly relates to providing a magical experience - adding and taking nothing away.

Several years ago, my wife had a playing gig a restaurant - harp with occasional guitar/voice depending on discovered desires of the diners. Tips only.
Since she is visually impaired, I was always in attendance as "roady'"and protect her and expensive instruments from stumbling guests and entitled grabby fingers.
As 'fixture' of sorts up front I also help the hostess with folks with physical disabilities, giving directions and mollifying large crowds of families waiting to be seated. (not not an employee)

My objective was keeping folks happy enough not to walk away because of the delays. Some was just crowd control by being present. Some might be considered "entertainment."

I might tell a story about the area or its history. I often taught kids simple games/puzzles. I also occasionally performed magic effects - most with simple props or "found objects."
My choice of effects and whether or not to use performance magic was based on what I learned about the "audience of the moment." I did not accept tips nor perform at tables.

Group reaction and individual comments were always favorable. The owner loved the free help, and the staff appreciated the increase in tips from happy customers.
Feedback indicated that folks found all of my "presentations' to be magical. A well told, animated story or the demonstration of a slide-rule is considered "magic" by some. (impossible for them)

If we only look at the magic Effects I performed as qualifying me as magician, then the fact that I was not being paid left me free to choose what to perform, and to adapt my presentation
to the group, local events and what I had overheard about their vacation or problems. It was 100% based on audience engagement. How good was it magic wise?

Well, many guest were fresh from DollyWood or theater shows in Pigeon Forge that included magic acts. I was frequently asked why I did not perform "down there in a show."
One man approached and said, "That is the most mystifying Ring and Rope sequence I have ever seem. Would not work for me on stage, though."

The point is that every magician can be prepared to use their practiced skills for purposes other than "entertainment for pay." I feel they should - just to enhance appreciation of magic.
I have other stories about presentations of magic effects in hospitals, airports, a nature center and for homeless folks on the street. No, Danny I never charge a fee - and am the richer for it.

I realize that that means I am not a "professional" by your definition. But, I am very professional about the way I deal with members of my audience and the quality of Effects I perform.
Hand & back disabilities limit what I can do these days, so I turn down paying gigs even when asked. Instead, I am writing eBooks about the dozens of sleight and effects I have created over past decades.

Just a glimpse of what an amateur can do - one who cares about what his audience expects and will appreciate. Who knows, some who see my magic may even decide to buy a ticket to see you perform.

Yes see you think this story clears things up and yet it is exactly what I thought. It is 100% my point.

First of all the “feedback” is almost meaningless as it is anecdotal. No master how many people tell you it, the plural of anecdote isn’t data. You can pick and choose what you want to be successful. Playing tennis with the net down is an equivalent.

According to that story you are not a professional by any standard. Being a better diversion than waiting doing nothing is hardly high praise. You have no standard to meet. I know you will never see the difference and will desperately cling to this fiction and that is ok.

As I said when people make financial and time commitments to see you things change and all your pontificating and bloviating is meaningless.

And it is just as likely, if not more that people won’t buy tickets to see magic shows because of what you are doing. Suggesting asking the lines of “oh thank God I didn’t pay for that”. And herein lies the essential problem with this sort of fiction you have placed yourself in. You have no standards to live up to, no satisfaction levels to gage. I mean other than the anecdotal ones where 100% of everyone loves you. (By the way 100% of people who see any show are not satisfied so that alone shows the fantasy world nature of your claims.)

We know pretty easily if folks like the show. Higher and higher ticket costs, selling tickets, running for 5 years and still going when average run is 6 months. We have clear cut ways to gage enjoyment. I


I have always said as a magician I deal in deception. What I do not deal in is self deception. I admit it is not as much fun as pretending.

Interesting article, Tommy. Thanks.

He managed to start with art and slide into a discussion of capitalism and politics -- although I agreed with him that hippies thought they were different, when all they did was create their own culture, and look, and behavior. But he totally missed or ignored the point about art as a means of self-expression for human beings, which goes back to the Altamira caves, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and ancient music, and probably long before then. I wonder if he was a hippie himself in the 70s, or how many university-level art classes he took to understand what it is.

No, I wasn’t in NY in the 70s. I was in college and grad school learning design, before going on to design office spaces and other facilities all over the country for a huge computer company. During off-hours, over beers, we used to talk about self-styled “designers” who just wanted to do their own thing: “I’m the set designer, and this is what I want to do,” or “I’m the architect and this is what my building will look like,” or even, in college art classes, “I’m an ahhhtist, and zeez is my maahsterpiece!” All of them totally disregarding that other people may not see their maahsterpiece the same way they do. University art and design departments see a huge amount of students who disregard what the professors are trying to teach them and soon drop out and end up working in fast food.

Yes, art is about expressing yourself, showing how you see the world, and hoping to touch whoever witnesses it. Performing artists such as singers know this. Sinatra and Elvis, on their own, sang “I Did it My Way” differently, showing their own styles and personalities, yet they could both grab their audiences by the scruff of the neck and shake them up.

So many performers of magic tricks over the past “x” years don’t, or won’t, or can’t, do this. Many years ago, as a teenager performing at a party for adults, something happened that changed my attitude about magic forever. After my show, a very nice middle-aged lady took me aside and told me I was a nice kid and looked good up there and did the tricks well, but that I showed absolutely no personality. Of course it broke my heart and I almost went into a slow boil, but I decided to listen to her, and think about it, and eventually I realized how right she was. I thanked her later, many times, in my mind, when my audience reactions began to change.

So I learned how to express myself, and touch my audiences, and get huge ovations, without needing to slide into politics or capitalism like Mr. Curtis.

Fortunately, Danny, other readers here will understand the vitality of what I and other "amateurs" do to keep appreciation of magic alive.
I and others could be "professionals" if we chose that career. We chose to do something else instead. It is not a measure of performance magic at all.

I am a professional in several fields. The standard there is not how muc people pay for tickets either.

It is amusing how you mangle your own use of anecdotal evidence. Anyone who says they like your show can't be counted either.
So, you fall back on ticket costs and total sales to mean something. Maybe that is just inflation or increased population.
You never offer any statements of anyone who ever likes your show, so 100% must be dissatisfied.

Another difference is that those who talk about my performance have actually see it. You have not - therefore can't even offer an anecdotal opinion.

Silly man - people do not pay to see me perform because I do not sell tickets or take tips. It is choice, not a reflection on the quality of my magic.
The "standard" I base my work on is the reactions of the audience and the stories they tell afterwards to others.

Your standard is how much money bored people spend. Where is the magic? Applause is anecdotal also. You have no clue as to what any customer thinks about your magic.
Perhaps you were just an alternative to staying home with the family. Maybe they had already seen every good show available. Maybe someone gave them a ticket asa joke.

The difference is, Danny, that I do not doubt that you can put on a good show and maybe have some magic in it. I do not need anything beyond your claim to make it possible.
You choose to attack anyone who does not perform exactly as you. That is not professional at all. You demean yourself. Is your life really centered around how much people pay for entertainment?

I can perform excellent magic everyday - and don't have to wait until someone buys a ticket. That is a higher standard!

I ask again, exactly what are you afraid of?

Keep your delusions alive Ken. That is the true magic. You have so many. You have no evidence that you could actually be paid to person lol. Minister ever does.

According to your silly logic I could have easily knocked out Mike Tyson simply because I claim it.

Thank you for confirming everything I suspected. Now I know. And since you write it none of it us assumptions.