I agree with Danny about changing a show on the fly.

Many years ago I tended to do that, not so much on the fly but doing different material at every show based on what I thought the audience would like. But as I learned more, I realized that it wasn't working for me. Much later, when I put together my cards-and-doves act and stuck to it, I learned I could pace it, emphasize some parts over other parts, add a smile here or there, and so forth, all from reading the audience. I had rehearsed it until I could do it in my sleep, so I was able to focus totally on the audience, and that helped a lot. It was a silent act done to live music, so I also had to be mindful of the music, but a conversation with the musicians ahead of time, and a cue sheet, made it pretty straightforward.

I have been performing for fifty years, on cruise ships, restaurants, stages, amusement parks, biker bars, street shows, schools, colleges, private parties, trade shows and business meetings--in many different countries...I have worked for children, teenagers, college kids, educators and scientists and rowdy drunks. I have never seen the difficulties that Funsway speaks of, and have been able to entertain and make a living without changing a word of my routines from audience to audience. I could not travel with enough equipment to change my shows in such a way, or improvise in front of an audience the way Funsway suggests, nor do I have time in fifteen minutes, or twenty or an hour to get to know what "the audience thinks of magic" and adjust to it. I do have to adjust my intensity and energy levels for different groups, but that has nothing to do with the audience's "perception" of magic or previous expectations. Videos of my live shows on youtube are very popular around the world, without changing anything for the youtube audience. It seems to me a very impractical and unnecessary approach.

Again, you are speaking of audiences paying for or coming to see a magic show, as a known magician. Not suggesting you change anything.
I am very glad you have made a good living doing what you do. That has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

I am not talking about "changing a show" or the need to practice to perfection. I did not say that one should "improvise" either. No change of practiced Effect "on the fly."
I am not taking about showmanship skills. Sigh! Did anyone actually read my post?

Besides, what worked for you fifty years ago may not apply to today's casual group of strangers. What I did decades ago certainly does not.
So, I look to learn what is relevant today.

The issue here is what a lay person thinks of magic (real for them) or when confronted by a demonstration of something weird or impossible
such as being at a table when a walk-around magician arrives. When you perform, do thy think "magic" or something else?

George mentions, "reading the audience." Exactly! That is based, in part, on assumptions you can make about a stranger's belief structure about "magic" in general and the role of performing magician today.
What can you assume today about a group of strangers? What do you know about their experience with live performance magic? What are their expectations?

Whit doesn't have the time to be concerned over what the audience thinks. Maybe no one else does either. Does that mean that magic is dead? or the same as it was a hundred years ago?

I do know that if the word "magic" comes up in a conversation, the reaction of folks is no the same as decades ago.
I do not feel that announcing "I am a magician" generates the same expectations as a decades ago.
I am a communications specialist and notice these things. I am a student of the declining human condition too. Who people deal with surprise, astonishment or "impossible events" is important to me.

These is not "difficulties," Whit. It is an opportunity to communicate more effectively with other people with performance magic being just one approach.
While I can applaud your experiences, I am also saddened if you can only look at life through the tiny lens of entertaining folks with a trick or two.

I presented demonstrations of impossible things to more than 40,000 business owners over thirty years. Not "your magic" or for entertainment (not for pay either).
I have also performed "magic effects" for hundreds expecting that to occur. I can blend the two experiences into new Sleights and Effect that may be of interest to some.
I can also read posts on the Cafe' and other sites that suggest few performers today are interested in magic at all by any definition - just tricks and 'gotcha' or "fool ya."

So, I suggest that my experience with how people perceive magic is just as valid as yours - different certainly.
I am only presenting an alternative point of view as to how to engage with an unknown audience IF your objective is "must be magic."
I can also document new effects based on my experiences for those who may wish to engage a group of strangers in a different way.
Few may desire to "do the work" essential to achieving a higher level of magic IF they happen to be before an audience that cares.

A performed can have several "highly polished effects" at the ready IF a change of approach is indicated/suggested.
Why guess at what might be entertaining or impactful for a group of strangers when you opening effects can FIND OUT?
What is their expectations and appreciation with live magic effects? Why not find out rather than assume anything?

For many years you championed the 'dilemma'. Your objective was to have every observer say, "I do not believe in magic, but there is no other explanation."
Is that dead? Or, can it be that you do not know what people today think about magic, or their ability to reason or care?

There are people who will buy a ticket to see a magic show. Great! What about the rest of the world?

Magic is not dead for me. I know that every person I meet has an interest in things unusual, weird, improbable or just different.
I can be prepared to interact with that person in meaningful way. Sometimes that means performing a magic effect.
I will be prepared to give them more than they expect and even exceed their imagination. I have no desire to "entertain people."

Others can do that. I will just provide tools to make it seem "more impossible" for those who care.

Do you think I retired 50 years ago? I am still working and earning a living performing magic. I do not understand what you are talking about. The dilemma is still my model for performance magic, but I think you may take the term magic in a different way. I don't always use the theme "magic" in my performance. 19th Century electrical technology as in my Teleportation Device routine works just as well. The performer attempts to prove something ridiculous and impossible, and then--surprisingly--seems to do it. What you are describing seems to have little to do with the topics of the Magic Cafe, or the subject "Our Magic." I don't understand your kind of performance, but it sounds more like shamanism than what Maskelyne calls "Our Magic."

I have never seen these difficulties either and I started in bars!

Ken with all due respect we read your post. Sigh. (God that “I know so much more than professional magicians” attitude is really annoying by the way.) You just want to pretend that things are your way of thinking because you want them to be. You want to change definitions so you can claim things you want. As always.

In the end Ken you have an issue of having to force people to watch your magic. You can’t get paid to do it professionally so 40,000 people has to watch it because you shoehorned it into a conversation and babble some nonsense about “the impossible”. Then all these years later want to bloviate about what you think magic is. This is fine. Your experience is valid, but not universal. Maybe not even common. This is what you seem to forget.

The circumstances you encounter happen because you have to somehow con people into watching you in the first place. Nobody has made a conscious effort to see your interpretation of magic. This makes a huge difference whether you want to pretend it does or not. The fact that you don’t perceive a difference in those two positions is mind boggling.

I know you believe there are no differences in what you do and what the professionals do. You are entitled to that opinion. Nobody ever has or will dissuade you from this position, in spite of reality. I admire your commitment to the bit.

Such projection, Danny - and all incorrect. No one has ever been forced by me to do anything.

amusing, as it proves my point. When you make assumptions you are usually wrong.
No matter, you must protect your view that an audience in Las Vegas represents some universal view. Just kidding - you found a niche and filled it. Great.

I applaud what "professionals" do and suggest that those who wish ot follow that path should pay attention.

For other who do not wish the life of a professional magician may look for other answers.

[quote]On Jan 25, 2024, Pop Haydn wrote:

What you are describing seems to have little to do with the topics of the Magic Cafe" ???? [unquote]

Since the subject here in the OP is about lay person's perceptions of magic and changes over time, ALL discussions of magic perceptions are relevant.

I perform what you call "our magic" and create and market effects that can be used by conjurors, mentalists and entertainer in general.

But, I am not restricted to that limited view of magic - and neither is the world in general. I am concerned over what an observer might expect and appreciate in a magic performance. If you are not, that is OK too.

I have experiences that might be of value to some readers here. Those have to do with what lay people think about magic. Very relevant.

You seem to be confused over some notion that I want others to give presentations as I did. Nope! I have never suggested or implied any such thing.

I post my experiences so that other do not have to. I can learn from your experiences - you can learn from mine. No projection necessary.

If my offerings make you want to do it your way even more - that is terrific!

If it causes some reader here to give more though to their effect selection, audience engagement skills or interest in a "a must be magic" result, that is good too.

You are the one who seems to wish to cram everyone into some limited view of what magic is or can be for everyone else.
I want to expend that view, or at least have a magician appreciate that what an unknown group may expects may be different from they personally desire or prefer.

Back to the topic of THIS thread. Do you feel that the perceptions of people today about magic are different from decades ago? Saying that you do not care is not an answer.
Saying that you are a professional is not an answer.

You are probably correct. No one cares one way or another. If so, magic is dead.

Well, perhaps it is a little different for the charlatans. Charlatans often have the gift of the gab and they often run it as a numbers game: only needing to take in a % the crowd they can wing it perhaps. The legit magician, in contrast, does not want his words to ever take anybody in, so he carefully scripts his patter to fit the bill, so as not to take in anybody by mistake. Words are very tricky things, which can so easily be misunderstood.

I wrote elsewhere about live theatre. The vast majority of people in the U.S. have never been to a professional theatrical performance -- a play, a musical, an opera. Their only reference point of live theatre is the school play or the local community theatre, and nowadays many of those, unfortunately, are terrible.

Back in the day a lot of these were taken fairly seriously by the practitioners, but nowadays way too many of them are done as rites of passage (in high schools) or as part-time hobbies by people who have no particular interest, and no training, in theatre. The quality level isn't there anymore.

So what is people's (the general public's) perception of live theatre? For many, it's bad, cheaply done, unimaginative productions. What in the world would make these same people want to spend money on a professional production if their perception is negative?

Take it from someone who was in the field for many years: today, people's perception of live theatre is totally different than it was in the old days.

The same for magic.

I was born into the ashes of World War II in a house just off Broad Street, Birmingham, England. The place was surrounded by many different theatres. Some had been bombed and they put plays on outside in the parks. The show must go on as they say. Some of our old theatres are still going and have been going for centuries. What I expect varies.

I was in Birmingham many years ago while in college. Took the bus from Stratford-on-Avon and arrived late in the afternoon. Gorgeous street with old old buildings. Made me feel like I was in a Dickens story. So I'm looking around getting totally into the atmosphere, and turn to the other side of the bus and see...

Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Man, did the balloon burst.

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign......identity

That is what to expect if you go to Stratford today.

Holy crap, Tommy. Thanks for the article. It was so much different when I visited.

“From a magical entertainer, the public expects two things—magic and entertainment.”
-Maskelyne, Nevil; Devant, David. Our Magic: The Art and Theory in Magic (p. 96).

And from a legit magical entertainer that is just what the public gets. If the magical entertainer simply performs something impossible in effect without any entertainment, then the public might well call it magic but they might also be left wondering if the magical entertainer has some real supernatural ability.

Good tommy, and that book was written for the general public, not magicians. It proves the point the the perceptions of magic by an audience can be different from that guessed at by the performer.
Yes, it is wise for the performer to include "the wink" as Whit suggests, or to learn what the audiences expects and adapt so that they know it is "just for fun," and still conclude "must be magic."

Methinks that today, a confused observer will more likely think, "electronic trick" than "supernatural." An "unknown audience" is just that.

In most of my published magic routines, audience engagement includes Effects done "in their hands," with object they have handled, or where the spectator is the cause of the magic."
Any thoughts of "supernatural" would be for themselves, not the performer.

I am captivated by the phrase, "without any entertainment." Given the current state of folk being incapable of entertaining themselves, plus the proven problem of "entertainment addiction,"
anyone in public who pays attention to you vs their cellphone is "being entertained." Is performance magic the best choice? Can they appreciate the impossible nature of your effects?

For many people today, most things are "impossible for them," including getting to work on time. So, teaching them how to us an alarm clock would be "impossible in effect." Hardly magic, supernatural or even weird science, but could be very entertaining. What will they "wonder about?" Neither you or I can possible know.

So, I have the opinion that a magician might have to educate an unknown audiences as to what live performance magic is all about. Why waste your "well mastered" C&B routine on folks who are not paying attention nor appreciate magic? Instead, shift to some effects they might enjoy like sponge bunnies. Why should your opening Effects not be designed to find out?

Why don't you get one of my Routines on lybrary.com and find out how it works? Several are available at no charge. Better than guessing about what I perform and always being wrong.

Change definitions all you want to fit your own perceptions. In no way Does it make the point you are so desperately trying to make even remotely correct Ken. It is something based on your own very limited experience. You are like the person trying to get a job and padding a resume hoping nobody looks deeper into the claims.

The entire world has changed. It keeps changing and evolving. Is this news to anyone? You adapt or you don’t. Audiences have evolved with the world believe it or not. So what? I guess it would be news if the audience was the only thing that hasn’t evolved.

I admit it makes things tougher for the guys who parrot routines or get old and don’t evolve. People who still claim a Centavo is a current Unit of currency, use terms like red hot mama or sunshine insist a Royal flush In spades is the highest possible hand. Oh and people who can’t manage to adapt to new audiences and do nothing but complain about it on the internet and long for the old days have trouble.

The great thing about working every night Ken is that you tend to evolve WITH the audiences! Neat how that works. So yes audiences have changed along with the world. I’m sorry if this comes as news to anyone. Just look at what can be said on network TV now. While The Honeymooners never showed a bedroom and Ricky and Lucy had separate beds. (Yet somehow had a baby.)

So you can play all your silly games and toss all the word salad you care to but in the end it doesn’t matter. You by no means have to accept anyone’s definition of anything. But by the same token nobody has to accept yours now do they?

Same for you Danny. Why don't you get one of my published Routines and actually experience the type of magic I perform rather than making weird guesses.

Actually, I offered to send you one for free last year and never got a response. I guess your "evolving" isn't based on real evidence - just projections.

Yet, you do seen to be agreeing that audiences might consider what is magic differently from decades ago - even in the "not exactly normal" Las Vegas setting.

Great! That is the theme of this thread - not your experience or mine. Of course, your opinion is different from mine because our experiences are different.

Now that you have taken the first step towards actually addressing the theme of this thread, how about the other relevant issues?

Do you feel that their change in perceptions is due to skepticism, or something else? Do you think the "evolvement of an audience" is better or worse for performance magic today?

My name or previous quote need not appear in any response to these questions. What do YOU feel?

So if I don’t use one of your amateur routines I’m not evolving? Do you hear yourself? I don’t need your inexperience to evolve myself.

Here is how I do it. I am in an Off Broadway production 7 shows a week. I don’t need your theories about what may or may not work. I have an audience that tells me every single night what works and doesn’t work.(See I have evolved and haven’t been in Las Vegas since a while before the pandemic.) Your self adjusted theories of what magic is to an audience is meaningless. I’m sure in that world where you just perform because you feel like it and force people to watch you that you are an unparalleled master. I’m sure when nobody has paid to see you and has no expectation your material will deliver without fail. And you can use all the word salad to confirm your thoughts as much as you like. There is no consequence for doing so.

But when you want to pretend that somehow that experience drifts over into the world of paid performance you look silly. You funny get to just pontificate your way to knowledge, magic forums not withstanding.

The world has evolved. Society has evolved. Those of us working in performance regularly have evolved along with it. This is worst confuses those who simply bloviate about performance.

From my own experience, one word: relevance.

When Howard Carter discovered King Tut's tomb, mainstream Egyptology took off. Movies, fashion, magic tricks, illusions, and so on and on. Years later, the world had moved on but many magicians still used Egyptian-themed props. The same thing happened with "Chinese" themes and "Indian" themes.

Me, for instance. I was doing very well with my cards-and-doves act back in the late 60s and very early 70s. White tie and tails, live music, the whole bit. A nineteen-year-old kid who looked like a nineteen-year-old kid but still pulled it off. That was the type of act popular in nightclubs going back to what, the fifties? A few years later, after quitting for a while, I thought about getting back into it. No way was I going to revive that act.

Going back to the OP, yes, I believe audiences' perception of magic has changed because they see magic as just another form of entertainment and compare it to what else is out there. Yes, their perceptions are different from ours.