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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3169 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 04:11 am 0 Danny, very little has changed in magic over the years. Tech stuff, yes, that changes almost daily, but we all adjust to that as we go. That's easy. But please stop trying to make the topic about me, and tell us how you collect on contracts? Tom The Daycare Magician Book https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 04:47 am 0 Tom YOU make everything about you! Nobody cares about your imaginary career yet you insist on telling everyone constantly. When it cubes to daycare or kids shows you scream about not posting unless you have experience, and I NEVER do. Why can’t you extend that same theory to all other topics? Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3169 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 04:57 am 0 Danny, you think I don’t have any experience with contracts. Look back and you can see that I have added more substance to this topic than you have. You’ve added zero, I don’t think you can stop being rude long enough to add anything worthwhile. Can you? Tom The Daycare Magician Book https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 05:16 am 0 You added babble. Nonsense about scaring clients when in reality it would never happen. As usual you added the what not to do part. So just keep going. I am saying that you have no experience in current entertainment industry contracts, and no past experience other than in fantasy land. Now that you have ruined this and derailed the thread it will be deleted I’m sure. Just like you always do. Way to help people. Ugh. Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 05:21 am 0 Quote: On Dec 22, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: Andy, please don’t take this as legal advice, we don’t do that on here. But here are my thoughts, since I heard someone call my name. lol Tom By the way this was your first post on this topic. There were two posts above this in which nobody mentioned your name. That is the heart of the problem in this section for decades now. Your imagination gets the best of you. You read things that are not said then get offended and angry. It really is odd behavior. Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 05:39 am 0 Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, Close.Up.Dave wrote: Quote: On Dec 22, 2023, Andy Young wrote: There is another thread about getting paid because of what a contract stated (wrong date), to not detail that thread anymore I wanted to know your thoughts on if they are enforceable or not? Also if not why have them? I don't know if they are truly enforceable, but I use it because having a slick document comes off as polished and professional. I recently had a client try to stiff me out of my deposit. He booked me for a gig at a fancy restaurant for a client meeting for his firm. He signed both our contracts but failed to read the venue's contract where they basically don't allow entertainment of any kind. I was rightfully owed the deposit and had been 3 weeks deep in planning, and we were 2 weeks out from the event. At this point, I had turned down several other gigs, and with all of it combined I lost out on a lot of opportunities and money. I offered to put the deposit to a new date, a discount on a room at my residency, and even offered to settle with a 25% deposit instead of 50%. He declined all of them and simply wanted to cancel and not have to pay me anything. He insisted this was somehow my fault and that he didn't owe me anything because I hadn't done a show for him. Any solid reason I gave him was met with an excuse as to why I shouldn't be paid for my time, expertise, and securing the date. After some back and forth, his tone became very condescending, and with everything that had happened, I was in shock that he would even go there. Naturally, I became quite fiery back. All of this took place with our assistants CC'd on the emails, which I found funny. He must have thought that he could sneer at me and call me names because I completely destroyed his entire ego with a few simple emails. Long story short, the thing that actually shifted him to paying me was saying the words, "breach of contract." He knew full well I would have kicked his ass for this and he was more afraid of losing his job or going to court. That's white-collar people for you. Instead of court, I would have much rather go directly to his event and barge in demanding payment. Then, telling his clients that they shouldn't trust a finance firm that doesn't pay their bills. By this point ruining the event would have been far more satisfying than doing my magic show, or collecting a deposit. I don't recommend this obviously. As for me, I'm not afraid of being a tornado in public. So the point is... if you want to enforce something, just choose your method lol Tornado in public is a bad look. Demanding payment as you describe may well land you in court on the bad end of the game. Getting emotional was, in my view, a mistake. One thing “white collar people” do well is push buttons to have you lose your cool. When they do that it marks you pretty clearly for them as an outsider. (Also the sort of contempt for the group is odd.) Never be emotional about money or business. It is just not professional at all. Besides that never let them think they get to you. It never garners more respect from this group. And no you don’t get to choose methods. One of the MANY things Mindpro is speaking of that we can’t get to is that relief needs to be spelled out in the contract. Heck even the court of jurisdiction has to be specified. These things exist to avoid the tornado in public silliness. A properly executed contract is a lot more than date, time and money. Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3169 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 06:17 am 0 Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: When it comes to daycare or kids shows you scream about not posting unless you have experience, and I NEVER do. Why can’t you extend that same theory to all other topics? LOL..That's not true at all. You always post. What if I told you the person that started this topic also does kidshows and daycares. oh well, Tom The Daycare Magician Book https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/
Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 11:38 am 0 See...? Exactly as I said!
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 12:44 pm 0 Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: When it comes to daycare or kids shows you scream about not posting unless you have experience, and I NEVER do. Why can’t you extend that same theory to all other topics? LOL..That's not true at all. You always post. What if I told you the person that started this topic also does kidshows and daycares. oh well, Tom I’d tell you to stop giving him bad advice! And show me the last time I posted on the topic of children’s shows. If you can’t apologize for making that up. And yes you do claim when it is kids shows I shouldn’t post. But it is interesting. You don’t care about being inconsistent. You don’t care about being wearing it costing people money. All you care about is getting you opinion out there and nothing else matters. There is SO much more to cover and understand and we will as usual never get to it because of you. Can you stop or can we actually talk about it? You’ve added nothing here of value. Please let the topic go on without 100 year old advice that is fantasy based. Please be an adult here. Please please please I’m asking very nicely. Let’s go into a new year with a new way. Even if it Is just this once. Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3169 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 02:47 pm 0 You right, you and Mindpro need to stop the whining and answer the question. I’m looking forward to hearing what should go in a magician's contract, and how an entertainment contract is so much different than any other service contract. Please share the contract ‘secrets. I’ll be back in five days. Now Go. Tom The Daycare Magician Book https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 02:49 pm 0 Not going to waste time with your involvement. You ruin everything so I’ll just keep answering PM’s where you can’t keep babbling incessantly. If you will stop we will move forward. It is all on you. You can keep posting all you like and you can keep derailing the thread as always. I just refuse to participate when you do that. It is up to you how you want this to go. Either your ego can feel better by posting or people can be helped with information from this century and not fantasyland. Not one person said contracts are different from other service contracts BUT YOU. Yes legalities may not be different, but what is contained within is drastically different. This is why entertainment lawu is a thing. Why would this exist if it wasn’t a thing Tom? Do you deny there are entertainment attorneys? People who specialize in entertainment law? If there are, and there are, then it is different. Fairly easy to figure out when you don’t have being argumentative and pushing everything as a kids show as your only agendas. Go ahead and let us know. Nobody said your name yet you claim they did so you can post nonsense that is arguments. Please again I ask just that you stop. I have just shown in the most basic way possible that entertainment law is a thing. Maybe you don’t get it and I understand your lack of understanding. Please don’t force people to suffer from the same things. Just stop before this thread is deleted and nobody can learn anything. This is one of those important subjects that you are giving people advice that will really hurt them in the long run, just because you feel the need to post. This is not about you Tom don’t make it about you. The wrong advice here is costly. That is not helping anyone except you. And nobody would be seeking advice if they already knew what to ignore! They all because they don’t know. But unlike you they don’t assume they know. They want to learn. Please let that happen. Oh and it doesn’t matter what level people are on in their particular career. Legal is legal. 90% of magicians download templates off the internet and have no idea of they even work in their state or not. Most would have an incredibly difficult time even attempting to enforce them in court because they are written poorly and executed wrongly. This matters. You have not done this in this century and not since the 80’s. Being “involved in” entertainment in no way qualifies you as knowledgeable. Please stop pretending it does. Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 05:14 pm 0 Quote: On Dec 30, 2023, Close.Up.Dave wrote: I offered to put the deposit to a new date, a discount on a room at my residency, and even offered to settle with a 25% deposit instead of 50%. Why?
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 05:19 pm 0 Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, Fedora wrote: Quote: On Dec 30, 2023, Close.Up.Dave wrote: I offered to put the deposit to a new date, a discount on a room at my residency, and even offered to settle with a 25% deposit instead of 50%. Why? I’d imagine he was trying to be as accommodating as possible. The part I don’t get is how you get “three weeks deep in planning” without having secured a deposit of any kind. This is not how contracts work, this is just an odd way to do business. If you are turning down dates with no deposit that is on you. In many cases the deposit is part of the execution of the contract so if it isn’t given the contract is void. The reality “might be” that there was no contract at all. I do not know what the specific laws of the state are or if giving the deposit was part of the execution of the contract. Point is there are many considerations. But the “expertise “ you speak of should have not allowed this to ever happen. Contract law is never as simple as people seem to think. Again all things that can be discussed once nobody is interrupting with opinions. Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 11:47 pm 1 Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, Fedora wrote: Quote: On Dec 30, 2023, Close.Up.Dave wrote: I offered to put the deposit to a new date, a discount on a room at my residency, and even offered to settle with a 25% deposit instead of 50%. Why? While on paper he owed me 50%, I was contacted close to the event and I wanted to still get something for my time while also making him feel like he got a win. This less became about the deposit and more about a cancelation fee. I’ve worked with agencies that do the following cancelation schedule: - 3+ months away = 0% cancelation fee - 2-3 months away = 25% cancelation fee - 1-2 months away = 50% cancelation fee - Less than 1 month away = 100% cancelation fee There’s many ways to slice the same apple. It took me a moment to figure out he was going to play the long game on not paying me but I pride myself on good customer service and There are those who simply try to take advantage for whatever reason. He even pulled a “we host lots of events, so losing on this one isn’t a big deal.” Which of course was complete BS and he wouldn’t have ever called me for another event if I had not charged him. Disrespectful people are just disrespectful no matter what hour of the day. The way I see it, the breakdown of value in my service is: 25% = Event Consultation 25% = Securing the date 25% = Showing up for the show 25% = Doing a great job In this context, it makes perfect sense to do 50% deposit before and 50% after the gig is over. He had me on the phone for weeks talking about the event, and I think I was at least owed 25%, which he ultimately did pay.
Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts	Posted: Dec 31, 2023 11:51 pm 0 Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, Close.Up.Dave wrote: Quote: On Dec 31, 2023, Fedora wrote: Quote: On Dec 30, 2023, Close.Up.Dave wrote: I offered to put the deposit to a new date, a discount on a room at my residency, and even offered to settle with a 25% deposit instead of 50%. Why? While on paper he owed me 50%, I was contacted close to the event and I wanted to still get something for my time while also making him feel like he got a win. The 25% charge was less about the deposit and more about a cancelation fee for engaging my services. I’ve worked with agencies that do the following cancelation schedule: - 3+ months away = 0% cancelation fee - 2-3 months away = 25% cancelation fee - 1-2 months away = 50% cancelation fee - Less than 1 month away = 100% cancelation fee There’s many ways to slice the same apple. It took me a moment to figure out he was going to play the long game on not paying me but I pride myself on good customer service and There are those who simply try to take advantage for whatever reason. He even pulled a “we host lots of events, so losing on this one isn’t a big deal.” Which of course was complete BS and he wouldn’t have ever called me for another event if I had not charged him. Disrespectful people are just disrespectful no matter what hour of the day. The way I see it, the breakdown of value in my service is: 25% = Event Consultation 25% = Securing the date 25% = Showing up for the show 25% = Doing a great job In this context, it makes perfect sense to do 50% deposit before and 50% after the gig is over. He had me on the phone for weeks talking about the event, and I think I was at least owed 25%, which he ultimately did pay.
Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts	Posted: Jan 1, 2024 12:52 am 0 When exactly do you expect the client to pay the deposit? I tend to expect it within a few days of the contract signing (Most do so immediately), but this is probably different for whoever your market is.
Close.Up.Dave Inner circle Behind you! 2956 Posts	Posted: Jan 1, 2024 01:39 am 0 Quote: On Jan 1, 2024, Fedora wrote: When exactly do you expect the client to pay the deposit? I tend to expect it within a few days of the contract signing (Most do so immediately), but this is probably different for whoever your market is. My expectation is within 7 days of signing the contract. Some corporate billing can take as long as 30 days so as long as it’s submitted within 7 days I’m good. Some event planners are grassroots and DIY, non professional, such as the one in my example. He knew nothing about planning events and didn’t take any of my recommendations.
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts	Posted: Jan 1, 2024 02:29 am 0 Why would you turn down work under these circumstances? Danny Doyle <BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
imgic Inner circle Moved back to Midwest to see 1349 Posts	Posted: Jan 4, 2024 06:11 am 0 Normally I just browse through the Tricky Business threads for the occasional nugget…but this actually made me spit out some coffee.. Tom starting a post with “don’t take this as legal advice” then literally posting legal definitions… Quote: On Dec 22, 2023, TomBoleware wrote: Andy, please don’t take this as legal advice, we don’t do that on here. But here are my thoughts, since I heard someone call my name. lol Yes a legal binding service contract is a legally enforceable agreement between two parties that outlines the terms and conditions of a service to be provided…. "Imagination is more important than knowledge."
TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3169 Posts	Posted: Jan 4, 2024 01:59 pm 0 Imgic. LOL. Glad you liked it. Just following the rules here that clearly say, we are NOT a court of law, we do NOT provide legal advice here, we are a magic community. We share ‘opinions’ and leave it to the readers to decide if it is true or not. Sometimes it’s worthwhile information, sometimes its not. I guess that’s why they call it the 'Tricky' Business. Tom The Daycare Magician Book https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/