There is another thread about getting paid because of what a contract stated (wrong date), to not detail that thread anymore I wanted to know your thoughts on if they are enforceable or not? Also if not why have them?

I don't know if they are truly enforceable, but I use it because having a slick document comes off as polished and professional.

I can tell you there is more to it than just having someone sign a contract and agreement and bam, you are all set. They are enforceable but there can also be deemed null and void or unenforceable.

I have had 58 different contract cases in my 45 years in the entertainment business. I won each and every one of them and have yet to lose, so I speak from some experience.

This is one of the reasons I released my Entertainers Business Toolkit to allow performers to have and use the right tools for their entertainment business operations. It has been one of my two best selling releases. I have entertainers of all types worldwide that have used this as a huge part of their business.

To truly understand how an agreement or contract should be created, completed, and executed and the right type of agreement (very important), you must have knowledge of entertainment business. If not you will have problems and are setting yourself up for problems.

This is one of the problems of using a general agreement or a contractor's agreement and attempting to use or adapt it for entertainment business.

This could be a great discussion but I am sure a non-performers who thinks he knows entertainment business will pop in and tell us how wrong we all are that have experience.

I have always said you don't know what you don't know. Followed by you also don't know how much you don't know. You do not want to try to create a contract when there is much you (not you personally Andy) may not know.

I see it all the time in magicians marketing books and courses a poorly executed contract that others copy and attempt to us themselves. Until one day they find themselves in a courtroom on the losing end because of what they didn't know. This is where layman's thinking is much different than industry thinking and procedures.

This is why it is so important to learn Entertainment business if you are going to operate as a magician or performer. General business knowledge and approach will not suffice as we regularly see here.

The ONLY thing worse is those that THINK they know when they don't have a clue, yet pass on their beliefs to others as fact.

Any specific questions you have? I am sure others here that are performers and deal with this as part of their entertainment business on a daily basis would be happy to discuss this until we get derailed or sidetracked again due to nonsense.

Another thing I hear all the time is "I am just a kids performer so I don't need (or want) all of those things - contracts, deposits, riders/performance instructions, etc. This is also not true, but seems to be a common feeling among kids magicians.

So they are enforceable but to insure they are enforceable in your favor, you must be sure to create and execute them properly.

The contacts most have? Hilariously inadequate and tough to enforce.

If there value to enforcing then? That depends on a lot of things.

It does spell out what needs to be done so it is great for clarity.

Andy, please don’t take this as legal advice, we don’t do that on here.

But here are my thoughts, since I heard someone call my name. lol

Yes a legal binding service contract is a legally enforceable agreement between two parties that outlines the terms and conditions of a service to be provided. However, the contract must be in writing and signed by both parties to be legally binding. It should include a clear description of the services to be provided, the payment terms, when the service is to be provided, and any other important details such as deadlines and warranties.

The purpose of and a key advantage of having a contract is that it provides both parties with a clear understanding of their obligations and responsibilities. If one party fails to fulfill their obligations, the other party can take legal action to enforce the terms of the contract and seek damages.

However, it is important to note that a contract is not a guarantee of success. The ones with a lot of unnecessary extras included that confuses more than it helps is the ones that are the most contested. I say keep it simple and to the point and you won’t have a problem. And when you do have a problem, its best to work it out among the two. Most people are reasonable when it comes to living up to their end of a bargain. And that's ever truer when you can say, I have a contract with you name on it. So, you do need the contract. Because it's the 'threat' of legal action that gets the job done. I've won many cases without having to hire a Lawyer and waste a day in court.

Not only do you need the contract, but you also need a collection plan thought out in case it goes wrong. Going to court is the last thing you want to do.

And let me say this again, so that nobody becomes confused, and mislead, the Entertainment business contract looks no different than any other contract to a judge. He rules by law not by how many tricks you can do. A contract is a contract.

Tom

Another opinion being passed off as fact. This is 100% not true. There are differences in an live entertainment services contract vs. other types of contracts. Anyone that tells you differently doesn't know what they don't know.

This is something that anyone that operates from an entertainment industry position knows, as well as any of my consulting clients or coaching student knows. The proper tools and protection for your business is just as important as your show, your marketing, or any other entertainment business components.

Tom has spent years saying things like "entertainment business is no different than conventional business" or "there are no different rules for entertainment industry business than there are for normal businesses" or even that "me-based businesses are the same as industry operated businesses," oh yeah and lets not forget "there is no such things as Consumer Markets and Professional Markets, this is something that Mindpro has made up here!"

As I said, it is plain as day someone doesn't know what they don't know about entertainment business, yet they infuse themselves in every topic and discussion dispensing opinions, theories, and "their thoughts" as facts. This is crazy that this is let to go on here when people are trying to have serious discussions about their entertainment businesses.

Mindpro, when it comes to enforcing a ‘contract’ do entertainers have different judges in the court? I don’t think so.

Now I do understand someone like DC having a lawyer that specializes in big time entertainment write up the contract.

But I don’t think Andy, and many more here, will mind me saying that they are not quite on that level yet. If they showed their clients a 40 page contract with a language that they couldn’t read, they would run. And that’s closer to being a fact than just an opinion.

So, my opinion is still to keep it simple. A judge will love you for it, if one day you do have to face one.

Tom

This is snow the second time you've said this - something that was never said. That though is ridiculous. This is also now the second thread where someone wants to hear from other performers and entertainment business owners that you just have to come in on with your "thoughts."

You don't see it for some reason but it is preventing another decent discussion among entertainers here.

Also no one said anything about a 40 page contract or DC. This is all you again.

Hey Andy, I haven't seen BK's contract, but I believe the sticking point is his semi admitting
it might had been his error. If the mistakes were all the clients, he probably wouldn't have
trouble enforcing the contract.

Good topic though, since we're on the subject, how long or detailed should a contract be?
And how does an entertainers contract differ from other folks? (Open question, not asking you
specifically, Andy)

My contract is quite simple, mostly just dates, times, money, deposits, and a couple things on
the performance conditions etc.

As I think I stated before somewhere, the amount of money probably wouldn't be worth my going
to court over, none the less an enforceable contract is still nice.

A little side note while speaking of contracts, the word ‘contract’ can be a scary word to some. An ‘agreement’ seems to be a better choice for many, and I know a few magicians that will always refer to it as an agreement. I personally like ‘agreement’ because that implies that it’s a mutual understanding, rather than a rigid set of terms and conditions set out by you alone. If anything, they need to view it as their guarantee that you will keep your promise.

Tom

If it is holding you to keeping a promise then contract isn’t scary at all.

On some level they need to understand that a contract is serious. They need to respect it and abide by it.

Oh I completely agree that they need to understand that a contract is serious. But they also need to believe that it is in place to protect them too. That it is an ‘agreement’ between the two, not just a demand by one side. Just because you refer to it as an agreement doesn’t change the fact that it is still a legal contract.

Tom

All contracts do that.

You’re making no sense.

I agree. The contract is simply part of the process to secure your services as the entertainer. No more really needs to be said. Sure it can be for mutual protection, yada, yada, yada, but simply put it is a required part of the process to secure your services - period.

I've never had to explain or justify a contract for myself or any of the artist or acts I/we book, including kids parties.

There are so many things that need to be said here relative to contracts and Andy and Fedora's legitimate questions, but I know (as does everyone else) before we even start that they require some additional things and directions which we will in no way be able to address or pursue without Tom chiming in or derailing with his beliefs, opinions, theories, and "ideas." So it is probably better not to even go there.

Mindpro, you keep saying you want a discussion, yet when one person disagrees with one word that you say, you start acting like a three-year-old. Oh, I can’t play if he plays…. Do you not understand that a discussion is not just having one man's opinion.


Please answer their questions...if you can without all the badmouthing. I wish for once you would just answer a question without telling us how all the others are wrong. How we should never listen to magicians and in the next sentence say we should never listen to non-magicians. I honestly don’t think you can talk without badmouthing someone. You started badmouthing me in your very first post here, before I ever said one word. I have no idea why you fear me so much. Now stop your crying and share your thoughts or shut up. I'm all ears until you start badmouthing me again.

Tom

Too often bad info needs to be called out. Inexperience needs to be highlighted.

Why do you get so angry Tom? Telling others to shut up is certainly not nice.

Real nice!

Right, this post was started in order NOT to derail another thread, which was admirable. That is until you come here and do the same thing here you were doing in the other thread and as you do in so many threads here in Tricky Business.

The point is their questions do not have simple answers. So knowing where we have to go and what needs to be covered and understood to even begin to properly address their questions with the answers they need and are seeking, there is no way we can do that here (in the business section with a business question) without you chomping in just as you did here to my last post already.

Sorry, I am not going to put in the time and effort for you to do this properly. I'm also not willing to participate in your giving bad, and costly advice from someone who is not even an entertainer or operating an entertainment business!

This is not a casual, let's shoot the bull "discussion" it is a business question inquiry. He really needs to hear from actual performers who are operating an entertainment business to discuss what they are doing and how they handle this. This was also pointed out in the first post of the last thread you did this to.

No one is badmouthing you or anyone, just stating the facts that everyone here knows. Nobody fears you (tat s hilarious and more of your crazy imagination at play), only the harmful thoughts and "ideas" that you present and try to justify just to be able to see yourself participate in something you know little about (today's entertainment business.) All you want to do is argue with Danny, and over your nonsense, thoughts and opinions (mostly outdated from decades ago) without understanding the damage they can present for those that may attempt to follow what you want to pass off as facts when we all know they are not.

These guys aren't asking for theories, opinions, but actual answers as it pertains to their business. It is so sad you can not understand this. So if I choose not to play your game and get caught up in this it is my (and others) prerogative. Where it also hurts is others choose to do the same and it is the OP and the question-askers that suffer. Then I have even heard from several that you PM them to again push your thoughts and theories while attempting to discredit what myself, Danny, and some others have said that are based on actual experience and facts. It is crazy and I am not willing to spend my time and effort to have it disrespected, derailed, trolled, and and have to endure all of your nonsense, accusations and victim-playing nonsense. Everyone else respects our efforts...only you have this problem.

Just so you understand , My thoughts, opinions and theories as you call it, is all based on me having been involved in magic in some way or other all my life, and I am 77 years old. I raised millions of dollars promoting and performing a 90-minute illusion show for several years. (I talked about it in my magic book) I also worked behind a magic counter pitching magic for almost ten years. I have performed kidshows on and off all my life. I’ve owned several million dollar companies, so I do know a little about running a business. Am I the best magician on here, of course not. Am I the smartest person on here, of course not. But then, non of that is required to post here. Now is it? I trust and understand that the others here are smart enough to decide on their own what to and what not to use. Most are just looking for ideas. Anybody wanting just a single opinion, would message that person and not be asking on a public forum.

Mindpro, I haven't pm'ed anybody, NOBODY, about you or Danny. I have no idea why you saying that. Mods are welcome to check my pm's anytime.

Tom

I recently had a client try to stiff me out of my deposit.

He booked me for a gig at a fancy restaurant for a client meeting for his firm.

He signed both our contracts but failed to read the venue's contract where they basically don't allow entertainment of any kind.

I was rightfully owed the deposit and had been 3 weeks deep in planning, and we were 2 weeks out from the event. At this point, I had turned down several other gigs, and with all of it combined I lost out on a lot of opportunities and money.

I offered to put the deposit to a new date, a discount on a room at my residency, and even offered to settle with a 25% deposit instead of 50%. He declined all of them and simply wanted to cancel and not have to pay me anything.

He insisted this was somehow my fault and that he didn't owe me anything because I hadn't done a show for him. Any solid reason I gave him was met with an excuse as to why I shouldn't be paid for my time, expertise, and securing the date.

After some back and forth, his tone became very condescending, and with everything that had happened, I was in shock that he would even go there. Naturally, I became quite fiery back. All of this took place with our assistants CC'd on the emails, which I found funny. He must have thought that he could sneer at me and call me names because I completely destroyed his entire ego with a few simple emails.

Long story short, the thing that actually shifted him to paying me was saying the words, "breach of contract."

He knew full well I would have kicked his ass for this and he was more afraid of losing his job or going to court.

That's white-collar people for you.

Instead of court, I would have much rather go directly to his event and barge in demanding payment. Then, telling his clients that they shouldn't trust a finance firm that doesn't pay their bills. By this point ruining the event would have been far more satisfying than doing my magic show, or collecting a deposit.

I don't recommend this obviously. As for me, I'm not afraid of being a tornado in public.

So the point is... if you want to enforce something, just choose your method lol

Well Said Dave.

Like I said above, “it's the 'threat' of legal action that gets the job done” The last thing you want to do is go to court to collect. This is why I say to have a good collection plan in place to go along with the contract. It may take a little time, but its not that hard to collect money when its lawfully owed to you.

Oh yes I forgot the famous multi million dollar companies and fantasy land magic show.

Even IF any of that remotely happened it was decades ago! Very old information and useless.

Now stop embarrassing yourself. Don’t get a perfectly good thread deleted in homage to your ego. Please I beg you just once be an adult.

I’m betting you can’t.