As I have said there are "professional" magicians that have been performing for years, decades, that still do not get this. These are the same people that because people come up to them after the show saying they enjoyed it or "they were great" actually think this is the reality and believe this!

They have no clue as to the realities of the greater picture. (I once had to really prove this to someone the ghard way - it was brutal but they definitely learned a lesson in reality rather than self-perception!) They are doing the same thing they did when they started out and have not evolved at all. What really happens, and most do not want to hear it or admit it (as we regularly see here) is they stop learning very early on thinking "they have it" or "they know what they're doing." It's delusionable!

What you just described is actually the norm among most magicians. I would say only 5% (maybe ten being very generous) actually get this and move beyond this point. And this is just their performance....their business acumen is even worse! Again, this is why I would never take advice from a magician.

The other common thing I see over and over again (as an agency owner and talent broker) is exactly as you described...they simply do essentially their kid's birthday show in other performance markets and situations such as fairs, fests, schools, corporate, theaters, etc. Sure they'll add a silk that say" Math Is Fun" or "Reading Makes Leaders" or some silliness like that and actually believe they have an educational program, or a corporate performance, or worse yet - a speaking presentation. Delusional! It's just their kid's party performance and not really anything more.

This is why schools have stopped having magicians near as much as they used to because they have been duped and burned by these fake "educational presentations." I see and hear the complaints daily. Unfortunately it is the worst with kids performers. It happens a bit with other types of magicians but not near as much as with the kid's performers. This is certainly not creating a show for the proper market or anything close to using (or understanding) an ERF.

Fedora,

This is why I always encourage kidshow performers, to have plenty of effects that play to all ages in the act. If you call yourself a magician, you need to do some magic. I think most underestimate Childrens ability to understand magic and what’s happening on the stage. Years ago, I did dove productions in my birthday party shows. This is why I would always have as many adults in the living room as kids. I made sure I mostly played to the adults knowing that the kids would follow along and love it too. Moving forward to today, kids learn much faster at a much early age. Your seven-year-old may know more about the iphones, and computers than you do. Never play down to or underestimate children.

Tom

Oh lord.

Well I don’t know why only half my post showed up above. I’m sure it was me that did it wrong but I’ve re-post it all here, and try and delete the above one. Sorry about that.
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Fedora,

This is why I always encourage kidshow performers to have plenty of effects that play to all ages in the act. If you call yourself a magician, you need to do some magic. I think most underestimate Childrens ability to understand magic and what’s happening on the stage. Years ago, I did dove productions in my birthday party shows. This is why I would always have as many adults in the living room as kids. I made sure I mostly played to the adults knowing that the kids would follow along and love it too. Moving forward to today, kids learn much faster at a much early age. Your seven-year-old may know more about the smart phones, and computers than you do. Never play down to or underestimate children.

I say think more like Disney, they understand both children and adults. They produce movies that both can enjoy, they have Disneyland and Disney World that both can attend and equally enjoy. I would certainly think that they know as much about entertaining folks as anybody.

It’s not rocket science. If we all would just step outside of the magic bubble and see the world through normal eyes. After all its these normal people sitting in the audience that you’re wanting to please. Also keep in mind who’s paying you, it's certainly not your magician friends. Trying to please all your peers is the worst mistake a businessperson can make.

Tom

Pretending you’re a billion dollar company is a worse mistake. They have the budget to implement strategies that take a while to take hold. Most performers don’t.

While you certainly couldn’t take a full theme park to a small show, you can create magic and wonder on a smaller scale. Something that many ‘magic’ shows are missing. (And I think that is what Fedora was referring to.)

Tom

I guess having worked in this century is probably helpful.

Danny,

The real truths about entertaining and doing business never change. I’m sure with a few small adjustments, Harry Houdini could still do pretty good today.

Same with life itself, all the important things in life we all learned in kindergarten. You know, be kind to others, not hit people, learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and take a nap.

Tom

This is why we can't have a decent discussion about entertainment business here because of such surface and limited thinking and beliefs. It would be great to talk entertainment business with those that are actually in and doing entertainment business, not recollections from years ago and personal opinions being passed off as fact just to be part of a discussion.

Your beliefs about your kindergarten education explain a lot, lol. Maybe it's time to take a nap?

Great business advice.

This is why we can’t discuss business at all here.

There is a major difference between philosophy and the actual practices of the business. What I see both Mindpro and Danny bringing into many threads is guidelines in understanding the practices and disciplines needed to succeed in a business that is unlike any others. Tom, I appreciate your input, yet there is a time to leave theory out of the reality, there is a world of difference.

Wravyn, your opinion is welcome otherwise its not a discussion. But should we allow yours and not allow mine in a discussion? Besides, quite often a theory is just an explanation of one or more facts.

I do completely disagree with you that the magic business is unlike any other. ALL businesses are similar in many, many ways. Of course your only able to see that when you're not stuck inside the magic bubble.

But anyway, you would think, regardless of my opinions, I should be allowed to comment, and defend myself, on a spin off of my own topic. Don’t you think?

Tom

You can comment on any topic you want. That is the point of public message boards. But others can point out why that comment is wrong. Others can show why it is wrong.

So since you can comment as much as you like and nobody disputes it why do you get so angry when others simply do the same?

Danny, who is angry? And what exactly have I said in this thread that was so wrong? I agreed with Fedora there should be magic in a magic show. I agreed with Mindpro that you shouldn’t always turn to magicians for business advice. Is that what you talking about? All my other posts were responding to you. Well except for the one to Wravyn.

Tom

This entire post is pretty wrong. NOBODY but you has ever advocated for these things. But you intentionally misrepresent the views of others so you can make some goofy point you heard some guru spout. You do this all the time.

Tom you CONSTANTLY complain when others show you are wrong. You CONSTANTLY complain when your complete lack of experience is exposed.

You have opinions and are absolutely entitled to them. But you just can’t handle that others have other, more recently informed and current experience. You get very angry when it is pointed out that you give advice on things you’ve never done. It happens almost every thread until you complain and get it deleted. It is why you try to desperately turn every thread into a discussion about kids shows or daycare shows.

Now go ahead and pretend these things don’t happen.

Danny, you have a really serious problem thinking outside the box. (your own little bubble) So, let's just leave it at that.

Tom

Ha. You are stuck in the 90s when you never did anything even then. Whose struck exactly?

Mindpro, you mentioned that educational shows have been hurt due to fake educational programs. Has there also been a change or a new challenges of bringing programs into the schools due to concerns of the acts of violence we now witness?
David Ginn's PROMOTING MEand YOU II or Francis Ireland's books on booking shows did not have to face these issues.

Considering that her last book in the early 80’s was titled “My First 50 Years” it is likely that most of the issues today didn’t exist.

Most of her books and editing was from the 50’s to the 70”s. The phone was practically new!

There are a few things at play with your questions and references. The first issue is that schools simply do not bring in magicians to do magic shows as they did from the 40's - 90's and maybe into the early 2000s. The only time they do such shows is maybe for the end of year celebrations, and perhaps an isolated occasional reward assembly or fundraiser, even then very cautiously.

When the resources you mentioned, they did school work during a different time when magic was more revered, more popular on television and in the media, and the public was more interested and enthralled with magic (and puppets.) Times have changed.

The things I was referring to was twofold, since they really do not want "magic shows" they are more interested in educational shows, but not necessarily "magic educational" programs (as you said "fake educational shows.") They are looking for things with learning, lessons, and takeaways more than a show title, liner, or a couple of silks with pseudo messages. For example, one of my popular school programs is improving student's learning, comprehension, and recall to improve your grades within 30-days. It delivers on all counts with huge breakthroughs and takeaways. It is well-loved and accepted by literally everyone - school administrators, teachers/faculty, school districts, students, and parents.

The second thing I, and earlier Ken in another current thread was referencing, is that schools today, post-pandemic, have been slow to welcome outside programs into their school, campus, or building. It was originally more about COVID, masks, social distancing, germs, vaccinations, and health concerns. However, before the pandemic some school had changed policies and procedures about visitors, including assembly presenters, with enhanced check-in, load-in, in-building security and assistance, limited access, and of course in some districts pre-screening, an accepted and approved vendor list, and so on. I really haven't had anyone specifically mention this (related to school shootings, violence) to us but have heard things pertaining to school faculty at local, state, or national conventions. They do address security concerns in general and more methods, drills, and practices, but again nothing about school programs.

As Danny mentioned, the school market is greatly different than it was all those years ago. I started doing schools in 1976 and it was an entirely different market back then. So much of the information in the resources you mentioned are quite outdated and have completely changed.

The other problem is school associations such as the PTA are now creating their own programs on reading, math, science, bullying, presidents, health, and so on where they sell "programs in a box" that hey create in-house to school for their faculty or PTA to present these assemblies themselves. They get the packet, perhaps a Powerpoint, a script, and presentation notes. They are heavily pushing these as opposed to bringing in outside programs and skilled presenters. Of course, the teachers/PTA volunteers are completely screwing this up, the presentations are terrible, the students do not listen or learn anywhere near as much as they quickly tune out their teachers/host, and have little interest.

Of course this is hurting the school market for school programs and presenters, even with educational programs. In my K-12 School Market Success training I teach how to avoid this and use this negative to our advantage, but most don't know this and see the school market just as having less interest or drying up. The also really do not understand the current school market.