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Sunrize New user 33 Posts 
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My point was that although Derren has at points used psychology as pseudo explanations, he has also explored very profound themes and issues. So I do agree that certain times a lot of people are fooled into thinking what he's doing is more profound or real than it is. But at the same time.. he also explicitly states that he uses a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection, and showmanship which is true. And as I said, I believe that blur between reality and illusion that makes people questioned the limits of the human mind is something very interesting and accomplishes what this thread's initial point was: what does it mean to do something profound with our magic? It can depend and in this case I think it's accomplished in disrupting our fundamental beliefs and making us question things which is what good magic and mentalism should do.
So while I agree that science and factual television should be preserved, it's unfair to argue Derren is offering no education or drastically misleading people. He explored social compliance and obedience to authority with The Push and The Heist, the placebo effect with Fear and Faith and Miracle, conditioning with The System, illusion of choice in The Experiments and much more. And he also uses genuine suggestion and hypnosis throughout his shows which is another real experience. |
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ChrisPayne-001.jpg "View Profile") Loyal user UK 241 Posts
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Thanks Sunrize for bringing the thread back to topic "How should we make our magic non trivial?"
The irony is that head on attempts to give "meaning" or profundity to magic plots are likely to be ham fisted and excruciating. A safe start is to focus on magic that is strong, direct and unfathomable. Combine that with a performing persona that is engaging and "genuine" then the magic will speak for itself. Hints at themes or emotions will allow those spectators that are minded to "join the dots". This is hard work and frustratingly elusive. |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3695 Posts
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I would like to point out that we often assume that "meaning" in art is always deep, dark and serious. Art can be frilly, fun, comedic and silly. "Midsummer Night's Dream" is art; art can be meaningful, and still be funny, enjoyable, and intellectually stimulating. What is trivial?
Perhaps we forget that there is always meaning in strong magic: There are rare experiences in theater that produce such a visceral reaction and intellectual impact. |
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Sunrize New user 33 Posts
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Of course, art can be both meaningful and profound and also fun at the same time. But I think there needs to be something beyond the trick or something built into the trick that makes it meaningful otherwise it will just be a puzzle and therefore trivial. If we want to show people puzzles then why bother thinking about meaning? I mean this with no offense, I just don't see a demonstration of the impossible like coin in bottle as shown above having much meaning or profoundness to it. Do I think it's fun? Absolutely. But people look at that and see at best a fun moment and at worst a puzzle, and more often than not both.
This is why, personally speaking, I always start with what I want to communicate. The trick to me is just a vehicle to demonstrate the idea that I want to explore or talk about. With enough thinking I'm sure it can be achieved with coin in bottle too but if the presentation doesn't explore any idea other than the coin entered the bottle then it's just a puzzle. The reaction is great but that reaction isn't to something meaningful or profound exactly, it's the reaction to the impossible happening and the surprise and confusion that brings. It's a puzzle. When pk touches is performed on a couple and one person feels that they were touched when though it was their partner that you touched, there's meaning there. When you perform a book test in which they read a page and imagine themselves as the character and you reveal what they're feeling and picturing as the story comes to life, there's meaning there. When you're talking about origami and folding up a piece of paper and it turns out to be the very thing someone is thinking of.. again there's meaning there. Granted these are pieces of mentalism that come to mind as that's what I do.. the same principles can be applied with traditional magic. What does the trick express or say other than it happened? |
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ChrisPayne Loyal user UK 241 Posts
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This is where we will diverge Sunrize. I don't think that a magical moment, where a trapdoor opens underneath a spectator's feet and they experience a feeling of freefall, and are left with a memory that grows over time and retelling, is just a "puzzle".
Yes, make it entertaining, intriguing, dramatic or emotional, but the central experience, the one they talk about should be the impossibility of what they witnessed. |
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Sunrize New user 33 Posts
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That's fine, and especially in art we should have these conversations and disagreements. My goals as a performer should be unique to me and the way I go about things should be too, that's a good thing. I personally believe that of course impossibility is a big part of what we do but if we focus too much on that or in the case of most performers solely on that then it will not be as meaningful as you can build it to be. I would rather my audience go away thinking about the idea I wanted to express with the piece along with the actual demonstration rather than just a demonstration of the impossible or mysterious.
The impossibility is built into the effects we perform. So my point is that instead of leaving it at that why not do more with the piece than simply perform it at default. You already know the trick is going to get a reaction and if you're happy just performing tricks and puzzles that's fine. I just don't see myself doing so. Maybe I'm not expressing my thoughts as well as I could be tonight but hopefully I've somewhat got across my feelings on that issue and I'm happy to agree to disagree when it comes to the topic of artistic choices and what we do with the material we perform |
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Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3695 Posts
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On Dec 4, 2023, Sunrize wrote: When magic is used as a means to make a point, tell a story, sell a product or an idea, then it is not art--it is not magic for its own sake. As Maskelyne pointed it, magic in service to theater has to be truncated to serve the needs of the story. It can't be too strong or it will take the spectators out of the story--it is relegated to the position of transitional device or special effect. There is a huge difference between the experience of a puzzle and the experience of the impossible. The direct experience of the impossible is a profound experience. Using magic in service to make a point, in my opinion, trivializes the magic. Magic becomes a beast of burden instead of an end in itself. If you want to send a message, use the phone. I believe that the art in magic is found in magic for its own sake. |
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Sunrize New user 33 Posts
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I'll disagree with that. I think our views on this point are polar opposites which I don't have an issue with, I'm just trying to make my thoughts known in a way that hopefully makes sense and is not disparaging. Perhaps there's even a time and place for each kind of effect that we're imagining where one is solely a demonstration of the impossible and one tells a story or has another layer to it in that sense. Not every piece I perform is super theatrical or profound, but I do make an effort to make what I do meaningful and for me I've found that means a story or connecting with an audience or giving them more than just the impossible. I would rather they leave from the encounter thinking about the conversation we had and what ideas were brought up and how they experienced something special in line with that. Perhaps this will make more sense if I point out that I perform socially and only performa mentalism. With that context, it makes more sense for me to, instead of firing off tricks or demonstrations of impossible things, weave meaningful experiences into social encounters.
For a professional I understand it would be more fitting to be more of a showman and in that context it would make sense to just amaze an audience. But even then, if we come back to the example of Derren, he doesn't just perform a trick for the sake of it and the magic isn't just for the sake of magic. The routines are woven together as part of a larger story or theme and each individual piece may have its own meaning beyond just "I did xyz'. I might have been a bit harsh about reducing the experience of the impossible to a puzzle, I understand where you're coming from. I hope you two can see where I'm coming from in that I personally aim for something completely different in terms of what I think gives my performance meaning. |
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ChrisPayne Loyal user UK 241 Posts
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It is a good conversation Sunrize. Returning to Derren, I expect you will have read his latest book "Notes from a fellow traveller" (which I think is tremendous), in which he muses on his own influence on setting a trend for imparting "meaning".
The Magic we do definitely has to connect with the audience, thank goodness there is no single or "right" way of doing it - it is (or can rarely be) an Art, and at best is an expression of ourselves. I'm going to leave this topic here, thanks for the stimulus! |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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And those who thought the patter profound thought the magic was science.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts
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On Nov 26, 2023, David Todd wrote: I have contributed to these forums for almost twenty years now. On a myriad of topics, meaning in Magic was one of them. You can search it yourself. But for you to then attack The Not Very Magical, Still forum because you think we who post there somehow don't take Magic seriously because we play our games is just the height of arrogance. I'm sure You think Max Maven would be proud of your intellectual observations?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 27, 2023, tommy wrote: You never play games in your life?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts
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On Nov 27, 2023, Mindpro wrote: I take it you don't play games in your life too?
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts
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No, not pertaining to magic and entertainment. It is my profession, it has been my livlihood for decades, it is a serious business for me. There are thousands (if not more ) places to play games or to even play with magic as theories, a hobby, or as an amateur. If I play any games in my life it is not on a magic forum.
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3044 Posts
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On Nov 26, 2023, David Todd wrote: I don't understand this. Yes the Not Magical category has over 400,000 posts, but the rest of the Cafe has over five million, sorted out by specific topics related to magic and allied topics. I would say that members here DO have something to discuss about MAGIC.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21275 Posts
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On Feb 28, 2024, George Ledo wrote: Yes I agree. While it may be the most “popular” individual topic, the sum total of all other topics that cover the very specific discussion topics within Magic FAR outnumber that one forum. It is an odd point to make even mathematically.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2024, Pakar Ilusi wrote: Not all games are childish and mindless but all your posts in these childish and mindless games here are and they go on and on, day in and out. If you look at your recent posts you will see page after page of these childish and mindless posts. To be fair, now and again you do ask a serious question: the last topic you started was Why do the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles wear eye masks?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Posted: Dec 3, 2023 03:07 pm 
