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Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts 
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If done right you can make money touring before you ever leave your house (up front, in advance.)
I agree with Danny's sentiments which is why getting the proper education is essential and mentoring or coaching in regards to this is really the only way to learn. Like Danny, I must say I have had my greatest successes in creating my own markets without a doubt. This includes combing both of what of you guys are talking about - touring in a market that I had created. This is one word of advice I teach and share with all of my students is to explore, research, and consider under-served or new markets you can create. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 11, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: That's actually a good question Danny, I have a tendency to do the thing and finding out. The downside of that is obviously you could burn bridges, and in your previous example of touring, lose tremendous amounts of money. What do you believe is a positive way for a performer to gage what they are capable of Danny? |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts
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Yes it is a fantastic question. Here is their problem. Every answer I would give you involves you changing most of what you already do. You have shown a complete unwillingness to even change a little. You think things work “this” way so that is how you do them. All of this has lead you to the brilliant business model of “try it and see what happens”. Ugh.
To be able to do something like this as I said you have to shed that skin of what you used to be and become that thing you want. You have to make changes to the very foundation of what passes for your business model. You have to rethink what makes you believe you are even qualified to be in the market you ARE in or if it is just luck. What makes you believe the market even NEEDS you other than a magicians universally held belief that magic goes anywhere? What is others perception of you and what services you offer? How do you go about trying to get into there markets? (Do you just walk out onto a pier on a windy day hoping desperately that someone asks to see magic? Do you even carry tricks with you for this purpose?) Just how do you educate yourself about other markets? Because apparently the research you did on touring was TOTALLY goofy. I can go on because there are thousand of questions that need to be answered for you to even properly consider what I have asked. You can’t “fake it till you make it”. First you have to be able to learn and realize you don’t have any of the answers, much less all of them. I deal in deception, but what I don’t deal in is self deception. You can’t learn anything if you already know everything. https://youtu.be/21psbDqpcVY?si=Sq_24CEABdDA6_pR Keep in mind you are not even at the level of the professor. What you want to do is much more difficult now because you have already gone pretty far down a path that your own mind will not let you think is incorrect. You have had what you perceive as success. Good on that. But if you want to actually learn something other that what confirms what you already believe you know then you have to get out of that mindset completely. Because doing a “little bit” of the one and little bit of the other is also a disaster. It seems as if you are going to stay in this mindset no matter what and my suggestion is to stay in it all the way. OR make huge sweeping changes. But commit to one or the other.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 12, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: You have a good memory. Thanks for taking the time to write all that Danny, this is easier to read than your previous edit. Quote:
Because apparently the research you did on touring was TOTALLY goofy. I do wonder what you think is "goofy" about that, I only made two statements about it, I don't want to do it, and most lose money at it. I assume the goofy part was folks losing money, there is a variety of statistics on that, and they can be difficult to pin down. A "Pollstar Concert Industry" statistic claims that 60% of touring shows are profitable. But they only follow the top 100. Most folks involved in the industry I've talked to seem to believe that the smaller ones are even less likely to be profitable. Reason being the biggest difference between success and failure is merchandise sales, and the smaller productions get worse margins due to lower run sizes. Still, almost all the numbers I've seen or been told about indicate touring is way more likely to be successful than a non-touring show. I believe you work on or off Broadway shows right Danny? You're defiantly familiar with the often quoted 1 out of 5 failure rate about Broadway. Of course, this is before they add other revenue such as subsidiary rights. Anyway, I could be way off about all that, it's way above my paygrade. Probably the biggest issue is it requires numbers from folks who have no incentive to give them. Making any estimate on how many touring shows and performers fail or succeed speculative. I have a response about the more important stuff you wrote at the end, but this is overly long so I'll be back this evening. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 12, 2023, Fedora wrote: Danny's point is more about where you are getting your information form and the context it is in. Pollstar, Billboard, Vareity, The Reporter, etc. are mostly based on musical acts or Broadway-type theatrical acts which is entirely different than comedy or variety productions. His point is where are you getting this info? He asked as it is simply not available, especially to consumer market performers, producers, etc. So this usually leads to asking other "performers (most who have never toured themselves before at all, yet alone educated to do so properly) which makes both the context and credibility extremely suspect and questionable. I know because I have looked for such info since I was a teen - it didn't exist then and still doesn't now. There are several terrible books published that will actually do more harm than good and again are mostly for music acts.) It is for this very reason I spent my adult lifetime researching and specializing in this and the real live entertainment business. Like Danny, I too would like to hear your resources and what you have found. Just from what you have stated here in the last couple of posts, I would say you have received (or interpreted) a great deal of incorrect, or at the least, misinformation. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts
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First of all get something right. You are not a touring band. You would be the equivalent of a touring comedian. (Or at least that would be the goal. You’re not anywhere near there yet.) Do you want to know how many touring healing comedians make money? Let’s just say a lot.
This proves my point about the quality of the information you are gathering. You are comparing apples and hand grenades. This is exactly what I mean by how you are doing things. Unless you abandon that mindset you are going to be treading water exactly where you are. You believe because you read it in some article it has to be right and it confirms your opinion! So the goofy part is you thinking whether the top 100 bands touring and overall business model somehow applies to what you believe you want to do. Then you take this RIDICULOUS comparison and try to think somehow it is relevant to your situation of jumping to slightly larger shows for children to a nationally touring act. Ugh.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 12, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: What's a "healing comedian"? Sounds like one of those evangelical things. Quote:
You believe because you read it in some article it has to be right and it confirms your opinion! I don't really have much of an opinion on that specifically, as mindpro pointed out there isn't much info available on it. Because you both asked, my info on touring has mainly come from a variety books on the subject, from both folks who toured to folks who produced things. I agree most aren't that good, but none the less interesting. Although I follow a couple of entertainment sources, most comes from a few folks I know. One is an older gentleman in Nashville, who continues to manage music acts. As that's music related I'll skip. I also speak with a couple of venue owners here in Arizona, they both claim to have experienced a decrease in national touring shows, and an increase in regional due to increasing costs associated with touring. Quote:
So the goofy part is you thinking whether the top 100 bands touring and overall business model somehow applies to what you believe you want to do. Then you take this RIDICULOUS comparison and try to think somehow it is relevant to your situation of jumping to slightly larger shows for children to a nationally touring act. Ugh. This might be part of the issue, as I believe I stated previously, zero interest in touring, or anything similar to it. This is for a number of reasons beyond the questionable financial returns. I've been simply studying a number of different markets, whether I have any intention of being involved in them or not. For example, a couple posts ago I mentioned I follow trade shows, this isn't because I care about trade shows, it's because it's somewhat reflective of what corporations are doing generally. And unlike some other things it's somewhat more public with its info. But back to healing comedians, I'm going to talk about comedians more broadly, their operating expenses are barely anything. This may or may not be the case for magicians. Folks like Micheal Carbonaro probably have very low expenses as well (see him if you get the chance) but an illusionist who has to move heavy equipment and hire staff is a very different beast from a comedian. More in common with a stage production at that point. So, it would depend a lot on the sort of show we are talking about. Not that there's numbers for either. Thanks for the post Danny, it's appreciated. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts
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Should we try to be funny about every typo you make? Headline comedians and if you have half an ounce of sense you knew that, you were just attempting, unsuccessfully as seats, to be funny. Again not your best pitch.
90% if not more of touring magic shows are not big box productions at all. Using that as some sort of gage is disingenuous at best. The way you go about gathering information is probably worse than being uninformed. How many more touring musicians and bands do you think there are as opposed to magicians touring illusion shows? Your comparisons are just not possible. You have a sunken cost to magic shows that tour. Not only in illusions but the things needed to tour and maintaining all that equipment. Not many do it so to claim most lose money is just silly. The thing is you have no intention of doing these things but have no problem misinforming others about it. That is the real issue. And if all of the information that gets you to your opinion is this bad it is no wonder… well it is no wonder.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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To quote myself:
Quote:
On Nov 11, 2023, Fedora wrote: Don't really see any spreading of misinformation in that, as there is only one statement of fact. But, this far into the conversation, it continues to seem that most fail financially. In a previous post you stated something to the effect of "you will probably fail if your source is reading three books on the subject". And to quote mindpro: "Again, knowing the ins and outs of this is essential, actually crucial, to do it right." and "I agree with Danny's sentiments which is why getting the proper education is essential and mentoring or coaching in regards to this is really the only way to learn." So, I have to ask, how many do you think approach it the right way? There are successful touring performers, but are you remembering to add in the folks who tried, probably without proper training, and failed within 6 months? I personally have spoken to a few of them, including a couple on this forum who tried something to the effect and it really not working out like they hoped so they switched gears. There's no way to know how many, as there isn't statistics for it, not that many would be open to publicly disclosing what they might consider a failure anyway. But just considering the fairly low number of touring magicians specifically, and the lack of good information public on how to do it right, I really don't see why there being more fails than successes is some grand misinformed belief. But as I said, I could be wrong. And Danny, I wasn't giving you the business, didn't piece together that "healing" meant "headliner". Possibly because that would make it a pretty weak claim. As you didn't add in touring middle acts, (and opening acts if that's a thing) who tried to make headliner but fell out before they did. It's sort of like saying 100% of successful people are successful. Not particularly useful info, although probably true. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts
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Are you deliberately obtuse?
You claim that large numbers of touring acts fail. Then you back that up by saying you were using information about touring bands. You claim within that there is no misinformation? You claimed that touring acts fail. I give examples of touring acts that are financially successful and you shift the goal posts to those who tried to be successful but just failed. You’re not even making the same point any more. (By the way your 1 in 5 failure rate on Broadway is very uninformed.) So your claim is those who fail often fail? (See everyone can do it.) yes for every successful person in every profession there are thousands of broken dreams. Football players, bands, magicians, and even doctors and so forth so have this. It is not exactly news to the world that not everyone gets to fine their dream it is qualified to fulfill that dream. (Well lately it has become this but historically this isn’t news.) You can’t gage how successful touring is as a while by qualified professionals by measuring how those who have no clue what they are doing fair. You have to look at the number of those actually accomplishing it. The only reason to do it your way is to justify an opinion or make yourself feel better about failure. Yes I’m sorry to tell you that you must be qualified to do it. I misunderstood. I thought you were bright enough to know that. Make it make sense.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts
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The problem with these guys touring and even attempting residency shows or runs, is they do like they do when approaching magic itself - they try to figure it out themselves.
I can't think of many other businesses, until the recent side-hustles trend, where people think they can start a business or business venture (which is what touring and residencies are) without getting the proper knowledge and education and having a business plan. This is where fake-it-til-you-make it and thinking you can figure it out yourself can be costly. This is not how you start a business or venture. It is ridiculous! The spreading of misinformation is you sharing what amounts to other opinions or personal experience which 98% of the time is just their own uneducated approach or their own efforts base don their uneducated approach. What's worse is because they have likely done it wrong or incorrect without the proper knowledge, education and training, they then deem "it doesn't work" or "you will fail" or other such opinion-based sentiments. Then THAT is what they share with others which is what I would refer to as misinformation. Also as one looks into it deeper there is a crazy misinterpretation of "touring" itself. There is a huge difference from working shows on the road vs. actual touring with a prepared, routed, and produced show. Look at how many magician's websites have "Tour Dates' when all it is is just their performing schedule. There is no "touring." By the way most shows do not tour with a feature or opening act. Some music or band shows do with perhaps other up and coming artists on the same record label, but other than that it is an additional expense that would be better served using local or regional talent with their own following. The last person I would accept touring information from is magicians. Other than a few magic-related logistics I wouldn't take their advice on touring at all. Plus many tour with big box shows, which is very different than other types of touring magic shows which is what most are. I can think of between 50 -100 touring magicians and most do not move furniture. Also, ask these guys you are speaking of why they wanted to tour? The reason you will get will be the first indication that they are usually blind to the science of touring. It is always usually about their show, wanting to perform their show away from their home area (where the are having trouble cutting it), and also is always about the magic in their reasoning. Deciding to tour and become enthralled in a touring business model has little to nothing to do with the magic itself. Their answers are usually ego-based, based on their dreams or fantasies, or seeing another touring artist and thinking "oh, I could do that!" It is very delusional an dnot busienss-based at all as much as just their own personal magic interests. They have no knowledge of touring markets, teh busienss aspects and so many other things that are almost always missing. Ask any of these gisy what are the primary 7 sources of revenue in a tour and I'm betting most if not all will not have a clue. Remember...just because they "tried" to tour (or what their own definition of touring is) does not in anyway mean they actually have tried real, actual touring within the live entertainment touring business model. As I always say with regard to entertainment business....Be careful to whom you listen to! THAT is what can be costly and cause failure! |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 13, 2023, Dannydoyle wrote: I'm not sure what that means, sorry, I'm slow to understand. Quote:
You claim that large numbers of touring acts fail. That's true. Quote:
you back that up by saying you were using information about touring bands. No, I only shared those statistics because there the only ones that exist that are even semi relevant. Objective statistics is hard to come by on this subject. Quote:
You claim within that there is no misinformation? Yes. Quote:
You claimed that touring acts fail. No doubt. Quote:
I give examples of touring acts that are financially successful and you shift the goal posts to those who tried to be successful but just failed. You're not even making the same point any more. Did you give examples? Regardless there no doubt is. I have had the same lukewarm point since I first mentioned it. Quote:
(By the way your 1 in 5 failure rate on Broadway is very uninformed.) As someone who works Broadway in some capacity that's interesting, what do you believe the issue is? I've heard that from many sources, here's an article by Ken Devonport (a producer who won a tony a few years back) on the subject: https://kendavenport.com/what-is-the-bro......-part-i/ Quote:
yes for every successful person in every profession there are thousands of broken dreams. Football players, bands, magicians, and even doctors and so forth so have this. Although I strongly agree with the sentiment, you may want to check the math. With about 1 in 300 people in the us as doctors, there being thousands per success isn't mathematically possible. And that's assuming every other person wants to be a doctor. Quote:
I thought you were bright enough to know that. That's been your most erroneous assumption. Quote:
Make it make sense. I gave it my best shot. |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Mindpro, I did ask them that very question, the answer has been the same
each time, the thought of being a touring magician (or having their own theater) as "cool" and a sign that they "made it". Unfortunately, the financials get in the way. One still often tells me about back when he had his own touring show though. To some, this kind of thing is important to them for one reason or another. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts
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I’m so happy you have all the answers. Really frees up time in your day already knowing everything. Congrats.
1 in 5 WHO GET TO BROADWAY IN THE FIRST PLACE! Do you have any idea the shear number of shows that never make it? You are just so short sighted and only involved in your own opinion it is crazy. Life is what happens outside your window while you’re busy Googling it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Danny, earlier you stated: "By the way your 1 in 5 failure rate on Broadway is very uninformed."
notice the words "on Broadway". And in your last post: "1 in 5 WHO GET TO BROADWAY IN THE FIRST PLACE! Do you have any idea the shear number of shows that never make it?". That looks an awful lot like a moved goalpost. Anyway, your views on this have been very appreciated Danny. Although, I don't believe I have all the answers, notice I started this thread to get other folks view on a particular subject I didn't have much of a view on. In this case we've been circling around the same thing, so I've shared the same opinion over and over. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts
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You’re just going to keep talking until extreme stops and declare yourself right.
You pretend to want other opinions on subjects just to tell others your opinion.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 13, 2023, Fedora wrote: Yes, back in the day the business model for touring a show such as a magic show, circus or carnival was a booming aspect of the industry. Advance men, phone room operations, mega-promotion, ticket giveaways, press and media, and many other elements were part of the touring landscape. These were annual events over many months and were very profitable. Those that did these were vary proud of their model. The world was smaller then with no internet so everything was none manually, personally, more hands-on, and effectively. So yes, they were highly regarded, well spoken of, and highly touted during its time. They worked for their success. And they should be proud for making all the elements work perfectly in harmony. It wasn't an ego thing, it was a legitimate business thing. They weren't selling or giving away secrets, most of the performers were unknown or not famous names, just great performers within the business model. Success becomes important to those who have achieved it, especially through their hard efforts of doing things right and making their dreams come true. It's not bragging or boasting, it's pride that they want to share. I can't tell you how rewarding and fulfilling it is. These touring production were the perfect example of that. However, even back then, if one was not properly educated and trained, they could fail as well. There were so many copy-cats that saw the success and attempted to do it themselves without the knowledge, education, or training that failed miserably. So in many ways nothing has changed. The appeal of a magic show has lost much of its luster, as has magic in general compared to past generations, as recent generations have not been raised on live entertainment to the degree of significance as back in those days, magic itself has become about tricks and "how did he/she do that" and just finding out the secrets, and of course attention spans have become much shorter due to technology and a faster world in which we live. While to many of these guys and gals (the ladies were an important part of the equation) reflect fondly at their touring past, they also realize how different it would be today. I think with the use of the internet that tours can continue to do well for some if they become educated to the business of touring and embrace and welcome the online world into the model. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21271 Posts
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Magic has lost some luster because of the number of guys who walk out into piers desperate to have someone ask them to do magic. Instead of becoming God enough! Performers feel entitled and start trying to work in places way before they should because of something they read.
Reading what others have done is not experience. Not even close. It qualifies you to do a book report not that job. No matter how many people you find on the internet who do the same thing to agree with you it is still just not experience.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Fedora Special user Arizona, usa 760 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2023, Mindpro wrote: Pretty interesting post mindpro. As you have explained a number of times before your main market is schools and resorts in a niche you made for yourself. As that is a little different than what a lot these folks were doing, how has the internet changed your approach through the years? Have you had to make any radicle changes, or has being outside of the usual concerns of SEO and the like allowed you to avoid some of those changes? Thanks again for your post, it's appreciated. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10615 Posts
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Quote:
On Nov 14, 2023, Fedora wrote: Not quite. I believe you are combining several different things I've said independently into one thought or perspective. Yes, I have pioneered several performance markets. Yes, I have worked resorts but they are not anything I have pioneered. The two markets I pioneered or was part of originating were the mall market, and the sports center/bowling market. Resorts were just some well-paying venues I specialized in creating entertainment programs for (music, comedy, variety arts, and attractions.) As for the school market I just did some things that others may not have done to the same extent before. However, you said that they (school market) were a little bit different than a lot of these were doing. Back to the touring I spoke of in days gone by, many of them did tour at schools or on school grounds or auditoriums/theaters, among other venues like fairgrounds, parking lots, and so on. The way the internet has changed touring or creating your own market is that today because of it it has become so much easier to do research and due diligence. Finding contacts, making lists, checking out venues and getting an idea of budgets, scouting new areas, towns or states, and of course the addition of marketing (in addition to conventional industry marketing). I still would never use it as my sole means of marketing or as a means for hands-off booking or trying to make my operation an online business. I have found that I and more than 80% of those I work with close more bookings at higher rates than those that use or rely mostly on online booking. As far as changes, it has primarily changed in speed of researching, promotion, the confirmation process I've never been a fan of SEO due to the markets I serve not needing or using it to find what they need. I do see the possibilities if serving consumer markets or lower end non-professional markets. Many I coach, consult, or mentor also have found more results and success without SEO or anything that relies on algorithms or anything that can change at anytime that affects your business or operations. This is one of the beauties of market specialization. The main advantage is being able to send electronic promo, video, artwork, graphics, and photos, and again conducting research in many capacities. Websites and their purposes can also be a good use depending on the type of performer and their markets, and the CTA path. The internet has made many things easier, BUT ALSO puts many performers into greater competition with peers and other similar performers. It can be used for positioning when properly understood. |
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Posted: Nov 11, 2023 08:19 pm 