I don't know if the facebook post was a hoax or not but there is a survey asking if the IBM should go woke and change their name. If this is true and they do go woke, I for one, will cancel my membership. I have over 50 plus years in the IBM but this would be the last straw.

Ron

Upon further investigation this is NOT from the IBM but just some lame survey from a person who in my opinion is trying to start something.

Ron

... Somehow International Organization of Magician doesn't have the same ring to it.

And I for one would be happy to see the change. It isn't "woke." It is recognizing that women and trans folk bring wonderful new ideas and should be welcomed fully.

Leave the name alone.

There's nothing wrong with the name of our group. Women have been and know they are always welcome in our club. You got it right, Charlie: Leave the name alone.

I agree, our name should remain as it is and has been since the beginning.

I've been watching this happen with different organizations and I promise you the result has not ever been good so far changing a perfectly good name because it's more 'politically correct' or something always just causes more problems than any good it does... I say keep the name... I haven't joined but I'm about to...

I was considering joining, but the name wasn't an issue. Sure, I'd prefer it to be something more inclusive than brotherhood, but I can't think of a better name.

However, I'm sure that younger and more diverse people like myself aren't too encouraged to join by a society called "brotherhood" though. The name isn't offensive, but it doesn't encourage people who aren't men to join. It's fine if folks want to keep the name, but it's not going to help keeping magic alive.

There was a time where the word brotherhood included all genders... apparently now it's just one sided to say brotherhood... because it's cool to be against 'the patriarchy' now... and it's cool to be antigender... these are just fads... not something to change a name that's existed for an entire century now...
Just my opinion and I am a two spirited individual but I don't care what pronoun people call me so I guess I'm a little less stuck in the complainer category than most of Gen x and later generations who now believe gender isn't real...

Yes, back in the day the pronoun "he" was considered gender neutral and used as such in textbooks, etc. Times change, and "they" is a more appropriate gendered pronoun. Brotherhood was once gender-neutral, same thing.

I don't mind the name, it's a good name and the intent is there, but the name isn't going to attract many new members besides men. No one has to change the name. Personally, my non-binary self is pretty flexible and I don't feel excluded by the name. The IBM is doing it's part to make clear that women and nonbinary people are accepted and welcome, and should keep it up. They have an inclusivity and diversity conference this august. I think the intent is what matters, new name or not.

I disagree. The IBM has been in existence since 1922 and has a large number of female members with new ones joining all the time and I don't think any of them stop for a minute to decide whether or not the organization is gender oriented. The name holds the pretige of being the largest magic organization offering its benefits to everyone and that's the allure of the it.

Yup, that's my point! The name on it's own accord isn't inviting to people who aren't men, but the organization certainly is trying to be. The IBM changing/not changing its name won't do much to attract more diverse membership. Active outreach will, and they're attempting that. That deserves commendation.

As someone who isn't a man, I don't see IBM as anything gender oriented based off the name at all. But going to IBM events in my area, they aren't very diverse. It obviously depends on your local ring. It's an issue in the magic community at large and the IBM isn't to blame, my point is that the IBM should (and is trying to) do a better job reminding women and nonbinary people that they're welcome in the magical arts too.

If that necessitates a name change, so bet it. If not, no problem. It's not an offensive name like the literal "redskins."

IMO keeping an open mind about a possible name change is the best route. The IBM will do whatever they feel needed with the name.

It is complicated because we are an international membership organization. And the different cultures from around the world have very different perspectives on some of these topics.

For example, some of the membership in Canada is very concerned about pronoun use and gender language as that is hot cultural item there. It does seem that the current language is a bit problematic there. So it is only natural that they will be passionate about it and be active in proposing wording changes. But there are members from other countries who are very much on the opposite side of that. For example, members from Latin American countries have voiced objections to removing the gendered terms for their own cultural and linguistic reasons. From the convention discussions, the majority in the United States seem most comfortable keeping the traditional wording but putting in inclusivity statements such as that which has existed in the bylaws for quite some time: "NOTE. – The use of the masculine pronoun in certain portions of this document is merely a matter of form and is not intended to be discriminatory in any way. The words “Chairman” and “Chairmen” are similarly intended as nondiscriminatory and are consistent with current general rules outlined in the latest UPI and AP Style Books."

Net, it is one of those things where there isn't a clear answer with which everyone will agree. The key thing is that we treat each other respect and hear each other out. As long as everyone feels that their perspective has been heard, we should be o.k. regardless with how it eventually plays out.

Maybe start your own group then.

I see no need for a name change.
In my 49 years in magic, I have seen magicians
of many cultures, colors, religions, sex, and sexual preferences.

Harris
Still too old to know it all.

I think it is interesting that the person who posted this thread has already stated it was a hoax, and yet we have fourteen subsequent posts discussing this as if it were real.

It's been an interesting read though. People like 252life who suggested to D. Yoder that they should "Maybe start your own group then.", because that's a solution? The I.B.M. is an inclusive organization, that is not perfect, but is moving forward everyday to be closer to perfection. They have room for everyone, unless you're a jerk.

You are all discussing something that is not happening or even being discussed. The people that run the I.B.M. are working hard to make everyone welcome. Yes, as FrankFindley mentioned they have changed pronouns from the antiquated "he/she" to "they/them" or in many cases to "member" and if that offends you, you're an old person that doesn't understand the English language! lol. It's easy to be more inclusive and cost nothing. I laugh when I hear the term WOKE used as a negative. You would think being ASLEEP would be the negative. I also laugh at the expression, "Go Woke, go Broke". The Barbie Movie is as woke as you can get and it just grossed $1.36 billion at the global box office, making it the number one movie of 2023...that's a whole lot of "broke". LOL

Anyways, this topic is interesting to read, but the fact is, as the person who posted it already wrote. It was a HOAX.

Cheers,

Shawn

Pronouns: Call me anything you like, but not late for dinner.