Until here I think we think similarly...

[/quote]
They should not be convinced that it their experience is "real"--only that they can't come up with any other explanation. They "know" that their experience isn't true, they just can't explain it any better than if it were a real experience of the impossible. They know the experience isn't "real" because of its framing as a "magic show."

If it is totally convincing, it is no longer an entertainment, it is charlatanry. [/quote]

Here I disagree with a few points,

First, their experience is indeed true! They do have a true experience within what I would call their cave. I see magic and the world as Plató saw the world, Plató has a myth (here is the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave) please read the myth and then come back...

So... you came back! I would say participants are the prisoners and we magicians are the ones outside the cavern, but now who says that? Why would my reality be more real than yours? recent physics studies suggest that reality is SUBJECTIVE and reality is made by the observant, so if in their reality magic is existing, then why would it be false? In their reality is true! (here are some links, https://www.livescience.com/objective-reality-not-exist-quantum-physicists.html, https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1206470/quantum-physics-mechanics-reality-Schrodingers-Cat-quantum-particles, https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613092/a-quantum-experiment-suggests-theres-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/, http://dailynous.com/2019/03/21/philosophers-physics-experiment-suggests-theres-no-thing-objective-reality/. And know why would I say that my reality is more real than the one of the participant? How don't we know if we are in another cavern?
I actually think that we as human society will never be able to get out of the cavern, as we have a lot preconcibed ways to see reality, like the way our language works, the way our mind works, the way our perceptions work...
So if we are never out of the cavern why would I think that my reality is more real than yours?

Who says that by framing something as magic show it isn't real? I always frame my perfomances as MAGIC and my audience then believe that what they saw is real magic...

And I believe that as Derren Brown says it the magician should (by implanting seeds of suggestion suggestioning the ways you do your magic) transmit a CAUSE to his audience, the EFFECT is just a consequence of magic, if I appear an elephant the magic is (or should be) in the spell, ritual, etc (in the cause), the cause is the magic, the effect (the elephant appears) is the as the name says the effect of the cause, of the magic.

So that way they can explain their experience, you are giving them a cause...

Now the charlatan thing depends on how you define magic, I would not be able to define magic as I think that is very wide the range of concepts that it takes but I certainly feel and belive that I can do real magic, if not I could not bring a magic experience as I see how it needs to be.

One of the best comic authors Alan Moore defines magic as art, for mister Moore Magic=Art, so it really depends on how you see it...

The question now is...
Who am I to question other person subjective reality?
Who am I to think that my reality is more real than yours?

Cristóbal

[quote]On Nov 26, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:


BTW

From Oxford Dictionary: entertain (somebody) (with something) to interest and amuse somebody in order to please them

Even if it was charlatanry it would still be entertainment...

I'm not sure that meeting someone with real magical powers would be "entertaining." Uri Geller is a good example of charlatanry as "performance art." His claims to reality brought followers and believers, but also brought on the skeptics and challengers and exposers. Those who believed didn't feel "entertained." They felt foolish and silly.

Pop does more than entertain; he gives his audience an emotional experience. Anybody down is spirit should go and see him and he will cure them.

Real to what extent and for whom?

I wish I knew...

“If you are a dreamer come in
If you are a dreamer a wisher a liar
A hoper a pray-er a magic-bean-buyer
If youre a pretender com sit by my fire
For we have some flax golden tales to spin
Come in!
Come in!”

― Shel Silverstein

I will

I will...

[quote]On Nov 29, 2019, weirdwizardx wrote:
[quote]On Nov 26, 2019, Pop Haydn wrote:


It is not the "reality" of the spectators because you deliberately falsified the evidence. It is the audience's ignorance--not their world view--that you have exploited. If you "know" that the feat of magic was done by an elastic pull, not by magic words, then you not only mess with the spectator's view of reality, you must lie about your own to them. If you manage to convince them that their experience was "real" then you have left them in greater ignorance.

BTW, I have a BA in Philosophy, so I am familiar with Plato. I suggest you look at more recent philosophers and quantum physicists for a more rounded view of the Cave metaphor and the nature of reality. Remember, it was other people deliberatly casting shadows to fool the prisoners--I don't believe that the artist's role is to help keep people imprisoned in the cave and increase their ignorance. The goal of the artist is to liberate people from their misconceptions and to help them experience "more" of reality. The art of magic is a sophisticated game that encourages the participants to understand the weaknesses they may have in observation and reason, not a means for imprisoning their minds in false conclusions.

When we show our audience that they can be deceived, they ought to thank us for making them fly to the jug.

I read somewhere that Aboriginal Australians live the dream and I guess if magic is the world of dreams, that’s why the Aboriginal people are thought to possess magical or mystical powers.

I’ve noticed so few magicians ever think in terms of why something is being done. They learn moves and secrets and never think of the motivation of why an audience should care that these things are happening. Otherwise it is a series of disjointed effects.

Sad, actually. A magician has an opportunity to artistically open the perceptions of another person to life option other than those offered
by marketers, politicians, educator and preachers limited by a electronic screen. You know, imagination without a "who is going to benefit"spin.

People know that they are missing out and ve never lerned how to entertain themselves. So, they look to vicarious stimulation and answers.

A magciain should create the condition under which a observer is willing and anxious to explore "the other right answer" - not just a skill demonstration.

In Veges, you have observers in a strang mix of hope/despair that has unique opportunities. People in other setting will have different expectations.

One must learm "why they care about what is happening" and follow..

I know that you, danny, can adapt "on the fly." you di dnoi tlearn that on YouTube. or package instruction of a trick.

I can, but don’t do too much adapting on the fly.

Music as an art is SO much about how it moves the listener. So are many others. Magic is dominated by those moves by how they themselves fell or are moved and not their audiences.

One can relate to songs about life as we know it but how can somebody relate to a supernatural moment, when supernatural moments are beyond everybody’s experience?

But they are not. Memories are tied to childhood and all life. People also relate songs to when they happened, not always about things they relate to specifically.

Can you make people feel what you feel inside? Can you have them relate to what you are feeling as to why you are doing this specific effect on this specific day? Evoke emotions in people as opposed to doing tricks just because you can.

Thank you kindly. I find the "Memories are tied to childhood and all life" notion quite fascinating.

The magical beliefs of my four-year-old granddaughter seem to be dwindling. She now tells me “It’s not real, it’s just pretend.”

Magic is supposed to create the experience of the impossible--to make it seem as if they witnessed the actual thing. The audience should experience the emotions and thoughts they would experience when confronted with the impossible in reality.

As a fella once said, “We must never forget that we are human, and as humans we dream, and when we dream, we dream of money.”

The magic is not the entertainment: these two sides of our magic are opposites. While the audience may not be able to relate to the magic, they can almost certainly relate to the entertainment. The nonsense we put to the audience is often created by exaggerating the effect of some real or plausible phenomena. The exaggeration technique emphasizes the reality, which the audience can relate to. The audience can relate to money and the miser's dream and so on. The magic on the other hand just blows their mind, hopefully.

If you’re not doing something perceived s as impossible it may be a hard sell to call it magic at all.

Danny, I have added that line to my lst of quotes to be used in some pending eBook. I already have many from Pop.