Coming back to the subject of discussion i.e Should Christians be Magicians?.....

I knew a famous priest who was an exorcist ( he passed away about 2 decades ago). His fame was as the 'father who drives away the demons'. He was a devout catholic who prayed a lot and meditated a lot. When he retired, the nuns in the local convent recited 25,000 "our father", 25,000 "Hail Mary" etc for his health and long life. I must say that he was related to me.

One curious thing about him was that he did not allow any visitors on Fridays. This was puzzling to many people including those who were blood relatives of him.

After his death, an elderly person from the family tree told me that this priest did Bhadrakali worship on Fridays. That's why he did not allow anybody near him on Fridays. Those who are not familiar with Bhadrakali can search on the net and find that she is a hindu goddess, but a very cruel demon type of goddess.

If that is true, 6 days of worship of Jesus Christ and one day of worship of the demon whom the priest was trying to drive away....

Even today, I wonder how the whole thing worked???

Interesting story but I fail to see the connection to performance magic. I also find it curious that a priest would or COULD refuse visitors. I am a former Roman Catholic who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy 14 years ago and I know that except for vacation, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox priests are forbidden to refuse visitors. I presume this particular priest had a very lax bishop?

Regardless, what has this to do with performance magic?

I am a Christian. I am also a professional magician. I see no conflict whatsoever. End of story!! JR

Though I'm not sure if this applies to the OP
question Romans 12:8--- popped into my brain.


Romans 12:8-15New International Version (NIV)

8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[a] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

Love in Action
9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.

Tonight I will again be sharing testimony along with being part of a
Praise & Worship music team.
It's more music, words, pathos and humor.
Tomorrow I will be sharing at a different church with surviving widows
Mostly older hymns and us Oldies playing the oldies.
Vent will over magic.
Saturday I will be sharing at a family orient homeless mission.
Younger kids there.
More magic stories.

As Paul taught, I use many tools including quoting from the New and Old Testament.

Shalom,
Brother Harris

Still too old to know it all

Vlad_77 wrote:-
Regardless, what has this to do with performance magic?

You see, a large number of people believe that what the exorcists and the faith healers do is nothing more than magic.

Boy what a lot of judgemental Brothers AND Sisters -- the ONE way and ONLY way IS, BELIEF in the LORD Jesus ( his love-life- teachings- resurrection-ETC)-PERIOD, not what YOU do-did-belong to, etc.. AS for "I AM" - possible? "I AM" the Creator-Healor-Love-Judge- etc-etc-all things " I AM " then-now-forever ?????????? Ralph(russo)Rousseau

John 14:6. Romans 3:10, 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9-10, 10:13. I try to weave pivotal verses such as these (or similar to them) in every Gospel magic program.

And my response as an Orthodox Christian to people who believe that the rite of exorcism is nothing more than magic is that I would wager they also believe the world is flat. I suppose I still miss the connection however between your relative the priest and performance magic. While I realize that most here are protestants, I doubt that many here would actually ridicule Orthodox and Catholics because we have rites of exorcism. After all, protestants believe in demons as well.

Up until 400 years ago "Magic" was called "Juggling". So that is where some of the confusion comes from. Magic tricks are not condemned in the Bible. Tricks are tricks (unless you try to make yourself out to be something that you're not).
A Christian magician friend of mine told a lady that had accused him of using the power of the devil to levitate his assistant that she had a bigger problem that she knew. If he could levitate the assistant 5 feet off the ground with a bad power then she must be able to raise her 6 feet because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world... or maybe it was a trick...
If you don't like magic tricks with the 'deception' then don't watch football where the quarterback 'fakes' a handoff.

not sure what cultures you are talking about. Performance magic vs spiritual magic was clearly separate in some cultures more that 1,000 years ago.

Magic "as entertainment" was confused in Western Europe and some effects proscribed, but further East there were few restrictions or confusion.

Roman records, for example, describe performs of mixed arts -- magic, juggling, skits, acrobatics, etc. They were clearly distinct arts.

During the Inquisition (600 years or so) there was no confusion between performance magic and other performing arts -- only the claimed source of one's powers.

..............

This is not to say your ideas presented do not have some value.

I don't think the original question is phrased quite right. "Should Christians be Magicians?"... How about "Is it ok for a Christian to be a magician?"? But then to clarify further, what is meant by magician? Is the question excluding gospel magician intentionally? Or is it that any and all forms of magic performer are in question? Should "Christian magicians" only do magic tricks and nothing else for the Kingdom?? There are a lot of questions to ponder and I think asking oneself honest questions is very healthy. I think asking others can become misunderstood and argumentative quite easily as evidenced on this thread. Maybe that's just being too picky I don't know but it kind of seems that it could have bearing on one's answer. As far as my opinion is concerned, my response is definitely a yes. And I would wonder if instead of questioning what others are doing, maybe it might be more valuable to focus on one's own ministry or talents and how God may want to use them? Good question though... Others opinions on the original question here??

Glen

Yes

Yes

The magic that is performed as entertainment is not in any way against scripture or its teachings. The word pharmakeia is interpreted as magic or witchcraft in places in the Bible. This word is the same word that is at the root of our word Pharmacy. It is used because back then drugs were used in rituals. But a misreading of it would make people think that performing magic as entertainment today is against the Bible. I have been a Christian for over thirty years now and a magician for more years than I care to count! There is no conflict as long as you are a Christian and perform magic to entertain not to deceive and there is a huge difference.

Good magic to all,


Eric

This is really a simple question. And the fact that people make it complicated is part of the problem. Should a Christian participate in magic? We must differentiate between two definitions of magic. One definition involves the claim to have powers through whatever force you obtain it to perform supernatural/magical acts. People cast spells, perform magical incantations, and actually claim to have supernatural powers. That is different from performing seemingly impossible routines aimed at entertaining, routines that appear magical due to their impossible nature. Yes, I think a Christian would be crossing the line if they actually claimed to have the power to do these things for real. But the vast majority of "magicians" are actually engaging in a performance, an act. What they are not engaging in is magic. When I go to a brick and mortar magic store, it is a far different experience than going in a store selling potions and stuff for spells and witchcraft, of which I know of a few stores around. Very different kind of store. One is selling stuff to help you fool other people, the other is trying to fool you into thinking they have actual power to sell. Two totally different professions. And that is how Christians should explain "Christian Magicians". Two totally different concepts, which unfortunately share the same descriptive word. Which is why the word "illusionist" or "illusion" can be helpful. Is it wrong to entertain people with illusions? Absolutely not. Why would it be? Simply because it is often referred to with the word "magic"? One word can refer to many different definitions. Guilt by association is how churches have banned certain music, counseling, looked down on people with mental illness, banned using playing cards (gambling association), and many other things. It is called being legalistic. It is what the Pharisees did. Unfortunately, some churches still do this. In those situations, I just shake it off and move on. I had one lady in a small group where I was performing a card routine, the group of people were all Christians from different churches, who told me when I was done that "witchcraft is of Satan". She thought I had actually performed some feet of magic. The others enjoyed the routine for what it was, and they even tried to clarify it for her. I simply stated that it was an illusion created by some slight of hand with the cards. I then took her comments as a compliment that the routine was convincing and went on my way. I find that when I am performing, that getting into a debate over Christians and illusion/magic is not productive. At other times, when not in the role of performer, I will state my position. But still just let it go. Plant a seed, and let people wrestle with the issue themselves. I just draw the distinction between what I do and what the Bible refers to as magic. Some get it others don't. You can't change everyone.

An additional theological note: Jesus did not perform magic, he performed miracles. I even think it is unfortunate that we refer to Jesus' miracles as supernatural. Jesus' miracles displayed complete knowledge of and power over nature, (emphasis on "power over"). Jesus did not perform Harry Potter style magic but without the wand. Jesus has real power to control nature. God is the creator of nature, and the rules of nature. He understands them far better than we do. And has the power to control all that is within nature. Supernatural often implies a violation of nature, which is, I think, an unfortunate word to describe Jesus' miracles. Jesus didn't violate nature he exercised power over and controlled nature. Supernatural often conjures (pun intended) up impressions of Harry Potter type magical powers that contradict nature. I don't think that describes the miracles of Jesus.

Totally agree Eric! I usually always tend to remind everyone before my shows/performance that what you are about to see is not real magic but just an illusion. I feel if you have a pure heart, God already knows that and will not hold performing and entertaining against you.

According to one online dictionary, 'irony' may be defined as "a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result." In that context, I find it amusingly ironic to note that Penn and teller, who are self-advertised atheists, appear to be in complete agreement with most Christians and those of other religious faiths in expressing their utter contempt for any magic performers who profess--or even hint at--possessing true super-human abilities.

I was warned early on in my (limited) magical career to avoid using the term "miracle" when referring to my own performances, and that "illusionist" or perhaps "sleight of hand artist" would be more acceptable to most audiences--in particular those at religious venues--than such titles as "magician," "sorceror," "wizard," or any other designations implying the possession of genuine supernatural powers.

On balance, I think that audiences are today much less likely to need reminding that my little tricks are in fact merely illusions than they were when I seemingly caused my first crochet ball to pass through the bottom of a solid steel cup some 70-odd years ago. Young children may now and then need a reminder that my charlatanry is all really just smoke and mirrors; but even they are mostly so well schooled to accept modern electronic marvels as everyday facts of life that there is really no need to caution them about such things most of the time. --Just adding my 2-cents' worth to this little thread . . . God bless!