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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts 
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Firstly I don't venture much in the Gospel Magic section but in search for inspiration on a presentation for a magic performance my adventures have led me looking into a possible bible book test.
During this search I came across some interesting audio that I thought might fuel some interesting discussion here in the Gospel Magic community. Before I go on I urge you to first listen to this: http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-librar......cks.aspx Having now listened to those comments what do you feel about them? Are these ignorant thoughts,much like playing cards are the devils play things or are they over reaching in their interpretation of the Bibles teachings. I would also like to know if any of you have had any issues or unease in your congregations of your chosen faith for being a magician. I look forward to your reply's. Magically Aus PS: Lookout for the hidden Dangers of Harry Potter. |
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ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts
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My feeling is that performance magic for entertainment is no different from a Christian actor using a name other than his own to play a character in a movie. People have expressed their amazement at what I have done, but I have never encountered ANYONE in fifty years of performing who really thought that what I was doing was real magic.
Maybe a better comparison would be the "deception" reflected here: http://www.topdreamer.com/awesome-bathroom-3d-floor-designs/ I don't think that anyone believes that you will really disappear into a void when stepping out of the tub, but people can still be amazed at the skill required to paint something like this.
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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On Jun 4, 2015, Aus wrote: Hi Aus, Some of world's best magicians were/are ALSO clergy! A short list includes: St. John Bosco (patron saint of magicians and you should read his story; what a testimony to our Lord was St. John's life)! Fr. Roger Crosthwaite (Anglican priest) Fr. Cyprian Murray of recent blessed memory (Roman Catholic priest) Br. John Hamman (Roman Catholic monk) When I converted to the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, I was told that there is nothing wrong with magic as ENTERTAINMENT. The Bible DOES speak of sorcery and St. John Chrysostom, one of the early Church Fathers and defenders of the faith warned against sorcery and in fact, the term used in the Bible for sorcery has been mistranslated as "magic." In this section of The Café are devout Christians of all denominations. We all fall short of His glory and we are all sinners. I am not a gospel magician because I personally believe that only a priest or bishop can properly TEACH Holy Scripture. That said, these people on here who use their magic to teach Christian lessons are a blessing and adhere to the Great Commission. There is nothing at all intrinsically evil - or good - about a pack of cards. They are inanimate objects Aus. They cannot reason and they are incapable of belief. What is DONE with cards however determines morality. Fortune tellers are immoral as they are bearing false witness. We are entertainers Aus. Think of actors and what they do, the ULTIMATE illusion of becoming someone else. Magic is as much entertainment as music, acting, juggling, and any other performance art. And yes, I DO believe that some people's fear of magic or their condemnation of it is based upon willful ignorance. God will judge me but not on being a magician but rather how deeply I proclaimed Him while living and how I lived by His example by doing as He commanded: Love one another, Love our enemies, Feed the hungry, clothe the naked. Read the Beatitudes (also known as The Sermon on the Mount), pray as our Lord taught us to pray, and live your faith but remember Christ's teaching that the SPIRIT of the Law and not the Letter of it is what matters. +Humbly in Him, together with the Almighty Father, and the Holy, Life Creating Holy Spirit, Vlad |
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts
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ClintonMagus and Vlad_77 thank you for your comments.
I must say I agree with both of your thoughts and I found my personal feelings towards those comments to the link I refer seem to portray Christians in a rather fragile light as if they lack the fortitude and willpower to resist falling into some sort of depravity that deception can allegedly lead to, and by extension according to them deception should be avoided. How far should that comment go? I mean beware the dangers of Harry Potter, is there really a whole book that can be written on the subject and should there even be one? Magically Aus |
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts
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There is always the danger of dropping your guard and being enticed to allow something unholy and deadly into the sacred places of the heart where only God should be allowed. The Bible is full of stories of God's people - nations, familes, and individuals - who did just that.
But the real danger is not in the power of darkness to overwhelm me - it's in my carnal desires fighting against my desire for more of Jesus. I get to chose. And choices have consequences. Choices are in my power to control -- not so the consequences. And here I must rest in the grace of God. I'm not perfect. I am doing my best to "run my race", but it still don't look pretty!! But I want Him -- more than anything else, which I am learning to value "as dung". But where I begin to love anything of this world more than Him, right there I plant the seed of emnity against Jesus. If I don't repent and return to my first love, He has every right to remove my light. That's no more narrow-minded than being faithful to my wife. And in that, avoiding those things that would tempt me into unfaithfulness. Since that's precious to me (both in the marital and the spiritual) as sacred and holy, I will not " play fast and loose" with it before others, either, lest I tempt them while somehow I stand firm. I've been the narrow-minded overly-religious person, terrified of things I couldn't explain. Now I own some of the things that used to scare me! I will not create an atmosphere of crediting magic to darkness - but I will (hopefully!) make room for mystery. Ed P.S. -- An honest reading of the Harry Potter novels shows that the magical characters belonged to essentially an alternate universe or species that lived alongside us, but were a different race. Think X-Men, not someone who stumbled across a talisman and a book of spells. |
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts
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On another issue entirely I wonted to put out there is the possible misunderstandings that mentalists could encounter with such belief systems when performing philosophy seems to muddy the waters of what should be perceived.
To best illustrate this mentalists seem to have a propensity to distance themselves from Magicians and their tricks on artistic grounds as to create in their own mind a stronger performance. They tend to do this by fence sitting on defining their performance as nether tricks nor real magic and leave the definition of what they do for the audience. I came across an interesting discussion that illustrates this point which deals in the difference between Mentalism and Mental Magic, here is a direct qoute: HOW TO TELL IF YOU ARE DOING MENTAL MAGIC OR MENTALISM: Pay attention to what audiences generally ask after seeing you perform. Do they ask things like: “How is that done?’ “Can you show me another trick?” “My five year old has a birthday coming up, what do you charge?” If your answer is “yes,” you are doing mental magic, which is best described as “effects with a mind reading theme, which are, nonetheless, perceived to be magic tricks.” They do not create the illusion of the “real thing.” If, on the other hand, you have succeeded in creating the illusion of mentalism, you will receive responses like these: “Did you learn that somewhere, or is it something you were born with?” “How did you know that?” (as opposed to “How did you DO that?”) “Get away from me, man. Don’t be messin’ with my head!” Mentalism and mental magic, then, are different forms of entertainment. Both elicit different perceptions and reactions from an audience. The mentalist, therefore, has an ethical responsibility unknown to the conjuror or mental magician, for he is in a position to make people believe in, and rely upon, to their detriment, his alleged powers. Magically Aus |
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts
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On Jun 4, 2015, Ed_Millis wrote: Ed l'm interested in where deception as a magician sits on this scale of "avoiding those things that would tempt me into unfaithfulness". It's seems to me that if we really wont to avoid anything that would seem tempting in any respect we should simply wrap ourselves up in cotton wool and not step outside. To me there has to be a line somewhere to all this where we can definitively say this is taking things to far, as my audio example in my first post shows that line seems to be blurry at best. Instead of a book detailing the Hidden Dangers of Harry Potter will there be a sequel on Star Wars? I don't mean to be sarcastic or patronizing on the issue of Harry Potter but it seems to me that the extremes of this issue can quickly get of hand if all the above sentiments that you and others described aren't tempered with a little guidance and common sense. Magically Aus |
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts
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Deceiving others as part of an anticipated magical event does not tempt me to cross boundaries into being unfaithful to God. If the event is anticipated, even if it's a spur of the moment table-side or close-up encounter, my personal feeling is that the spectator needs to expect something unusual, outside of the norm, with not much grounds for rational explanation within the boundaries of normal space-time rules and the laws of physics. If not, either I need to go practice some more, or I'm performing for a bunch of 12-year-old sharks!!
Most of my performances are humorous, with bits of head-scratching stuff thrown in. I do not attempt to present in a way that would pull other into a belief in "dark forces" or other "magical powers". This truly is something any 12-year-old could do - with lots of maturity and practice, which most kids are not going to pull off! Mentalism, which I am currently exploring, has its own set of dangers for precisely the reasons you pointed out. Here again, I am only in control of my own presentation. I can't help what someone else wants to hear, see, or believe. My personal presentation revolves around synchronicity, which I define as an undercurrent of thought which we can all link into, and I am merely a guide to help you find the connections. And it's in the context of entertainment and enjoyment; mystery and suspense and popped brain fuses are to be expected and anticipated like the chocolate chips in the cookies. I come in as an entertainer - an actor as a character. If you meet me at Starbucks afterward, I am not that character. I'm not responsible for the sensitivities of every stranger who crosses my path. I am fully responsible for how I treat those within my sphere of influence. I will do everything I can to not introduce anything remotely dark or demonic. And those who care to know me even slightly will understand that about me. Those who don't care enough to ask the simplest question rob me of an opportunity to clarify issues. I can't help that. "Jesus could not do many miracles there because of their unbelief." I do see some dangers in Harry Potter and similar works. (I did not listen to the audio, so this is nota response to that.) The dangers mostly lie in the fact that we have the second generation to be raised on the media (TV and movies, mostly, and now internet video). This is an appetite fueled largely by fantasy. In my opinion, this directly opposes a mind that can take God seriously. If I am fully enveloped in a mature and balanced Biblical fear of God, treading softly about the sacred masses of men's souls that are so very precious to Him, then I must take God and the impact of my life on others very seriously. Someone steeped in fantasy, though, takes nothing seriously. The Harry Potter series helped desensitize 20 years of readers to "magic". Kids have always tried to imitate, tying towels around their necks to be Batman. But now with the help of the money machine, their fantasies are fed "spell books", and the wondering of there really is something more out there. Never mind that they never explore that with God .... A line somewhere? The Kingdom of God is not about rules and lines down to the jot and tittle - it's about an intimate friendship between me and the Person Who so loved ~me~!! And who knows me so well that He will ask me to do or stop things because *He* sees where it will lead *me*. If you know Him this personally, then your friendship with Him will look different than mine. Some things will look basically the same. Down where I am really me, though, it's very personal, individual, and absolutely wonderful! Ed |
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts
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On Jun 4, 2015, Ed_Millis wrote: Don't you think your reading into something that isn't there Ed? If a child runs around with a towel around its neck acting like their Batman maybe they are doing it because its fun and they enjoy it, why do things always have to be more then they appear to be, these are doing what kids are supposed to do, BEING KIDS. The biggest problem I have with any religion is the sphere of interpretation that can lead to misunderstandings or at worst dangerous thinking. Here is a quote from Steve Brooks on this very subject: Quote:
First, let's get our terms defined. When the Bible (especially certain translations) uses the term "magic" (e.g. Exodus 22:14) or "sorcery" (Deuteronomy 18:11 et al.) or "ventriloquism" (e.g. Isaiah 8:19), it is clearly dealing with man's involvement in the supernatural, often with the collaboration of evil spirits. The context of the Bible prohibitions make it clear that God does not want man to dabble in games with the devil. Today's manifestations of these forbidden activities are such things as ouija boards, tarot cards, the occult and horoscopes. The Christian has no business playing with these, since they open the door to demonic influence. It appears to me that people even within the same faith don't seem to necessarily agree to the finer details of what things mean, which is perfectly illustrated by my audio link I referred to in my original post. Even a cursory look in this section will reveals situations that these things can manifest themselves to be. Just look at this post: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=16 Word meaning aside is appearance really a good justification to throw thing like Harry Potter in the heathen basket? Steve makes another observation: Quote:
Doesn't the Bible warn us to "avoid all appearance of evil"? (I Thessalonians 5:22) Couldn't innocent parlor magic or ventriloquism be easily confused with forbidden activity? Could Harry Potter get the same benefit of the doubt? If the shoes fits wear it as far as I'm concerned. Don't judge things only on appearance. Magically Aus |
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themagiciansapprentice Inner circle Essex, UK 1381 Posts
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For quality Christian comedy mentalism take a look at John Archer in the UK - yes the first person to fool Penn and Teller and also a great entertainer in Churches.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts
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Aus, you are free to have your own opinions about anything, or have no opinions about anything. I've read all the HP novels - haven't seen any of the movies. I've made my own conclusions based on my experiences as a Christian, a father, a minister, and an observer.
Quote:
Don't you think your reading into something that isn't there Ed? If a child runs around with a towel around its neck acting like their Batman maybe they are doing it because its fun and they enjoy it, why do things always have to be more then they appear to be, these are doing what kids are supposed to do, BEING KIDS. The biggest problem I have with any religion is the sphere of interpretation that can lead to misunderstandings or at worst dangerous thinking. The biggest problem I have with religious systems is the "code" or morals, ethics, standards, whatchamacallit that lumps everyone together and leaves no room for an individual to think for themselves and work out their stuff between them and God. Because that also leads to outside observers lumping "us" all together with "why do all of you believe this?" Short answer: we don't. There is a real Jesus Who is still alive and active, and still very much an individual person. He has revealed His heart and what matters to Him in the Bible. If I want to be your friend, Aus, I'm sure we wouldn't have to agree on everything. But I probably do need to understand what you consider very important - in Bible terms, that would be "sacred" - and don't touch that. Some men don't seem to mind jokes about their wives. For others, that is a sure way to kill a relationship. Jesus has issues He considers very sacred, and He must be respected in that if one would have any kind of real friendship with Him. These sacred issues are generally described in the Bible. Exactly what that looks like in an individual's friendship with Him is often hammered out between the Christian and His Savior. Which is where many religious people go awry - they merely follow the precepts of their religious system and have nothing deep, personal, and relational with a real person named Jesus. Quote:
Ed l'm interested in where deception as a magician sits on this scale of "avoiding those things that would tempt me into unfaithfulness". That's one of those things that you and I get to work out with fear and trembling before the holy and almighty Savior, understanding that as much as He loves me, He will also pass judgement on me. Not for stepping over some nebulous line drawn somewhere that I couldn't understand, but for violating my friendship with Him in ways that show I cared more about me than about Him. HP, Star Wars, magic, mentalism, whatever - these aren't the issues. Yes, witchcraft and opening doors into darkness and immorality are clear issues in the Bible. And how they manifest in our lives are the issues we need to struggle with, with the Holy Spirit alongside us helping and teaching us. And for some of us, how we treat HP, Star Wars, magic, mentalism, whatever, might become an issue, not because of some religious precept, but because it has the capacity to violate my relationship with Jesus and His plan for my life. How? That's a question to ask Him, not me. Cheers! Ed |
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts
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On Jun 8, 2015, Ed_Millis wrote: I guess we see the opposite sides of the same coin Ed, where you see freedoms, I see responsibilities. Where freedom to believe leads to ignorance and that ignorance affects others that's when I have a problem with religion. Apart from that, believe whatever you like. Magically Aus |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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Quote:
On Jun 8, 2015, Aus wrote: Why the dichotomy Aus? For every freedom there is a corresponding responsibility. One cannot have freedom without responsibility or vice-versa. As for religion, perhaps your "problem" with it is that you use it such broad terms. I am a Christian, I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I believe what I am taught BUT my faith teaches us to ALWAYS question for it is questioning that strengthens our faith and girds us to defend our faith. The Jehovah's Witnesses are loosely a religion but the difference is that THEY do not allow questioning of any type. Anthropologists and sociologists define such groups as cults. Now, I know that even though I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, I can go into a United Methodist church and ask the minister anything I wish about particular United Methodist doctrine and she/he will be honest with me and would dialogue with me. I went through a period some years ago after leaving the Roman Catholic Church where I had such serious issues with "religion" that for a time I was an atheist. I made the fatal error of blaming God for the foibles of man. It was a long journey and I did what most converts do and eventually went "church shopping." I found Orthodox Christianity through the most unlikely source: a Pentecostal street preacher! Quick testimony on that and I hasten to add that I am NOT attacking Pentecostals. This street preacher was real hellfire and brimstone guy. His preaching was all about how everyone was going to perdition and NOTHING about God's LOVE. I DO understand that this is NOT the official Pentecostal way of preaching of course. Anyhow, one day I saw him walking to his post at the university where I used to work. He was carrying two books and one had the Chi-Rho on the spine. By that time, he and I had become friends even though we disagreed on everything except the FACT that God exists. I commented that it seemed strange to see him carrying a book other than the Bible that bore those Greek letters. He said it was a volume of the writings of the Early Church Fathers - the actual disciples of the Apostles themselves. He stated that there were some students who were talking about these "guys" and my friend said he was reading the book to show these students that these "fathers" were in fact apostate. A few months passed and one day as I was walking past his preaching area I noticed that his "sermons" took on a more conciliatory, loving tone. I waited until everyone had gone to classes and asked him about the change. He smiled and said that he was in the process of converting to Orthodox Christianity. I asked him why and he stated, "because everything these Fathers had written was soundly based upon Scripture and that contrary to what he had learned, there was never an apostasy after the death of St. Mark as is popularly believed in certain denominations. Long story short, after six months of his cajoling me, I relented and visited the priest of the local parish. I attended Divine Liturgy, and on Easter 2001 I cane Home and became Orthodox Christian. I have questioned and STILL question my faith and every question has been answered and is based so soundly on Scripture that religion is no problem for me anymore. Perhaps you need to do some soul searching and some church shopping? If you read Acts and you read St. Paul's Epistles, you cannot help but notice that the notion of the Church as the community of believers as partakers of the Divine Nature is everywhere. Christ Himself said that no man is an island unto himself. St. Paul speaks of the great cloud of witnesses. Acts tells us of the earliest worship. We are MEANT to be in a worshipful community. I am not here to try to convert you Aus. But I worry that your problems with religion could separate you from the community that we as His children NEED. Do not make the same mistake I did and allow the foibles of men to color your perception of the Truth. None of us are perfect whether it be a patriarch, a pope, a priest, minister, or your average "Bruce."  The monks at Mt. Athos say, "we stumble, we fall, and we get back up again." 
On another note, I have to disagree with your assessment of mentalism. I agree that mentalism can appear profoundly powerful. However, as long as the mentalist tells the truth and states that what she/he is doing are a series of exercises in applied psychology - a NATURAL process - then there is no evil intent. That said, I find performers such as Uri Geller to be charlatans who bear false witness. I pray that Mr. Geller will one day acknowledge his perilous action and repent. But, mentalism in and of itself - like magic,music, film, dance, etc., - is NOT evil nor is it good. Again, it has no intrinsic morality nor self-awareness to make moral decisions. Lastly, I am curious about your opinion of The Lord of the Rings - the books, not the movies. +In Him, Vlad |
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GlenD Inner circle LosAngeles, Ca 1293 Posts
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Good thoughts well written out Vlad, as usual. I love the scenes that we are privy to concerning Jesus and His interactions with those closest to Him. It was not corporate at all, quite the contrary, and very relational. The visual image of His disciples reclining against Him while hanging out and eating etc is a level of genuine intimacy that I wish could be adopted and embraced among believers these days. Could you imagine couches in church??
Glen
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin
"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!) |
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts
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Why the dichotomy? Because I have taken the equivalent of your "church shopping" and have arrive at a different conclusion. The first thing I said to myself was self-praise is no commendation since all religions profess themselves to be THE ONLY WORD OF GOD, however this didn’t stop me at least trying to understand other view points.
Yet in listening to each faiths doctrines in an effort to better understand them it had appeared to me that not only was this not true, it almost seemed at times contradictory. The most apparent in this was for me the Muslims believe that God is one, that there are no gods except the God. They may contend that even though Christians claim to be monotheists, they actually believe in more than one God. Since Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they therefore err like other people of ancient or modern times who have believed in a plurality of gods or the sons and daughters of God. Often Muslim and Christian religious discussion breaks on the topic of Jesus Sonship. The Christian affirms that Jesus is the Son of God; the Muslim denies that Jesus is the Son of God. Both simply agree to disagree, each convinced that he is right and the other is wrong, as they go their separate ways. Disenchanted with all the conflicting arguments I searched for a more independent unbiased view and in that search I found science. The beauty of science is that the ideas we hold as true today will in 100 years' time be superseded by better and more refined knowledge. But that's a good thing. That's what's supposed to happen. Science is good at changing and updating our canon of knowledge as the facts demand it. That's why our scientific knowledge has increased exponentially, while religions... look pretty much the same as they did hundreds of years ago. Because religions are based on beliefs instead of facts, they're not very good at updating when new facts come in. It takes a long time for religions to change, and there's usually a lot of resistance. To some, this looks like constancy in a world of change, but in actuality it’s a drag on human knowledge. Science doesn’t require blind faith or belief in a celestial deity but rather a simple commitment for the pursuit of the truth in whatever form that manifests itself. It doesn’t concern its self with moralistic arguments or agendas but physical proof, and it’s for this reason I chose it as my metric to cut through the white noise of religious belief. The first things I tested were the basic tenet of most faiths, the bible. Who wrote it? Was it the same now as it was originally written? If not, why not? Is it a factual historical account or simply fictitious narrative to highlight a message? In search of these answers I looked at anything and everything that could corroborate or invalidate these questions and have found many source’s which have developed my views and it’s suffice to say much of it left me disillusioned with religion as a whole. If you want to see for yourself some of these source’s that I refer simply click the link below for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXlFWBcxBo But my views aren’t just based on fact finding missions alone but also seeing with my own eyes what religion has become. Religion isn’t just a personal spiritualistic journey anymore; it’s a systematic movement for change, much of which I don’t agree with. Pushing for religion in science classrooms, prayer-led public meetings, denying the separation of church and state, with holding medical care in favor of prayer for children … and the list goes on. The reason I made a point of the Harry Potter reference as minor as it may first appear is this type of thing is where all this type of stuff starts, and the potential can have serious consequences. The Catholic Church teaches fidelity, sexual abstinence and opposition to the use of condoms as counterproductive. The Catholic Church has been criticized for its pro-life efforts in all phases of society. The Church's denial of the use of condoms has provoked criticism especially in countries where AIDS and HIV infections are at epidemic proportions. So when I say believing leads to ignorance and that ignorance affects others this is exactly what I’m talking about and why responsibility is needed in larger proportion then freedom, or at least as it stands at the moment. Magically Aus |
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Vlad_77 Inner circle The Netherlands 5829 Posts
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Aus,
I could give you many reasons why Orthodoxy doe sNOT agree with thr Roman Church on contraception, divorce, and other issues, but, it is against the rule of this forum and besides, there are more crucial issues that ALL Christians could address in your reply. Some of the world's most eminent scientists are also people of faith. You know of Father Georges Lemaître yes? This Catholic priest is also the postulator of the Big Bang theory. Gregor Mendel was a monk. There ar emany more - past and present just as there are Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant, Jewish, and other scientists who are also devout in their faith. Science operates in the empirical and any scientist will tell you that. Even theoretical sciences must deal in the empirical and extrapolate. But just because science cannot or will not attempt to explain something does not mean that it is does not exist. Aquinas made a HUGE error in his Scholasticism and Voltaire and the Age of Enlightenment created the notion that rationality is the pinnacle of understanding. It is rather but a component. Tell me please Aus, when you love someone, can you prove it? Proof is not in things you do but what love IS. And there is NO rational explanation for love. St. Paul speaks of the qualities of love and what it is and what it isn't. I do not believe as some do that the Earth is only 5,000 years old. The Big Bang Theory works for me both logically and in my faith. Let there be light. Makes sense, no? I believe in evolution because evolution is adaptability. Change is constant in the universe and to deny such a fact is foolhardy. You seek answers in ONE place made by men and you will never find those answers to be complete. They will at best be "satisfactory." I am unaware of any ignorance on my part as a person of faith Aus. Rather I find that science has provided a wonderful way to explore God's magnificent miracle we call the universe. I peer into the night sky and I feel AND think. I know that I am looking into the past as I gaze at a star or look at distant galaxies. I know their names, their apparent magnitudes, and if a star, where it is on the H-R diagram. I ALSO simultaneously believe that God created this magnificence and WANTS us to explore it. He gave us many gifts and inquisitiveness is an important one. Like a loving parent who encourages her/his child to LEARN, to EXPLORE, so too does our God. Father Lemaître was not an ignorant man by ANY means. I believe that when we separate faith and science in the artificial way that we do, we limit ourselves. Does a scientist subscribe to limitation or expanding one's understanding? |
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Aus Special user Australia 997 Posts
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Science and religion are based on different aspects of human experience. In science, explanations must be based on evidence drawn from examining the natural world. Scientifically based observations or experiments that conflict with an explanation eventually must lead to modification or even abandonment of that explanation. Religious faith, in contrast, does not depend on empirical evidence, is not necessarily modified in the face of conflicting evidence, and typically involves supernatural forces or entities. Because they are not a part of nature, supernatural entities cannot be investigated by science. In this sense, science and religion are separate and address aspects of human understanding in different ways
Personally I’ve always seen religion try to partner up with science not to reconcile with it but instead to control it or stamp its own agenda on it. In recent history, the theory of evolution has been at the center of some controversy between Christianity and science. Christians who accept a literal interpretation of the biblical account of creation find incompatibility between Darwinian evolution and their interpretation of the Christian faith. Creation science or scientific creationism is a branch of creationism that attempts to provide scientific support for the Genesis creation narrative in the Book of Genesis and attempts to disprove generally accepted scientific facts, theories and scientific paradigms about the history of the Earth, cosmology and biological evolution. Another form is Theistic evolution which attempts to reconcile Christian beliefs and science by accepting the scientific understanding of the age of the Earth and the process of evolution. It includes a range of beliefs, including views described as evolutionary creationism, which accepts some findings of modern science but also upholds classical religious teachings about God and creation in Christian context. Religion doesn’t just try to exert it influence on science, it has it hand in everything we do and as a non-religious person I can see our society shaped by it. Look at our justice system. In our system alleged wrong-doers are taken to a room presided over by a judge on a raised dais. Those found wanting in their behaviour are then taken away to prisons, which we quite happily build and fund, despite the fact that they are the closest things to hell on earth that one can find in a modern society. Where do you think that idea came from? Doesn't it sound familiar? I happen to think that science shouldn't be viewed alongside a religious perspective since the relationship between science and religion is philosophy, not science. Science and religion are not compatible in the way they operate, and the distinction should be absolutely maintained. Science actively seeks new knowledge while religious doctrine is a closed set of beliefs that is, at best, indifferent to new knowledge. Personally I find religion partnering up with science muddies its sense of independence which is the characteristic I turned to it for in the first place. Magically Aus |
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Russo Inner circle So.California / Centl.Florida / retired Florida 1177 Posts
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One time when the Wife and I were Entertaining for an Adult Birthday Party (He was a Scientest for the Rocketdyne Program )- almost half his books in his Library was Religious - when I comented about this - he said '"several Scientists beleive in God/Jesus because they SEE the pattern that cant be just an accident" Ralph(russo)Rousseau
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Russo Inner circle So.California / Centl.Florida / retired Florida 1177 Posts
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One time when the Wife and I were Entertaining for an Adult Birthday Party (He was a Scientest for the Rocketdyne Program )- almost half his books in his Library was Religious - when I comented about this - he said '"several Scientists beleive in God/Jesus because they SEE the pattern that cant be just an accident" Ralph(russo)Rousseau
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts
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Aus, I have enjoyed several of your articles, especially in New to Magic. You have some great insights and much knowledge to share.
This, however, strikes me not as a share but as an assault. You apparently do not hold any kind of belief in a one singular God and His Son sent to us as Savior. This story is the Gospel, or Good News, for which this section of the Café is named (as Steve so clearly points out in his sticky at the top of the forum). To come in here and throw out such a challenge is not to invite dialogue or discussion, because you apparently had no intention of actually considering the merit of anything we had to say based in "religion" - you've already dismissed that. This is simply the time-worn question of "how do you justify yourself in the light of my superior arguments and your internal contradictions" wrapped in some kind of innocent-looking post. It's still a troll, and has no worth or merit. We've had the same kind of question asked before by those who actually wondered because they were wrestling with their own religious beliefs. Thos people come seeking an understanding of how we came to our conclusions, because they want to see if those conclusions will also fit them. You had no such desire or motive. The other threads added to the discussion - this thread only seeks to challenge. And if you reject "religion", then no argument based on God and His Kingdom sounds sane and rational, and of course that's how you respond to us. I am reporting this thread to mods and hoping they will delete the whole thing. Ed |
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Posted: Jun 4, 2015 07:04 am 