You do not need any info from Gary, Pete, as your booklet covers the subject completely - according to LO. Gary has something to protect and is not OVER THINKING. This is why there are copyright and patent laws. Everyone does not need nor deserve all info.
MR

P.S. knowing who LO is does not justify his posting above. I also care not about who he is. Tell all of us what he has created original that is not copyrighted.

This issue has NOTHING to do with whether or not a person can do the Adams Cups and Balls routine with bravado.

Do you realize that Cheppum Panthum has NEVER been in print? That Cheppum Panthum has only ever been handed down from one generation to the next (from father to son) inside a very limited number of families? And that MOST of what we know about Indian Cups and Balls is wrong? Do you realize that the Western Cups and Balls (as we know it today) was an INTERPRETATION of what the Indians were doing and that no one from outside has ever REALLY been taught their techniques?

Honestly, if Gary publishes the REAL work on this trick, he is breaking a 5000 year tradition (at least) and you are totally underestimating the value of the information that he has gathered.

Hi gary, the software world has this problem as well, probably worse. Here are some of the solutions we use...

1) don't just provide a product, also provide a service. create a relationship with your customer, provide an ongoing stream of benefits like training or semninars that they can subscribe to. a service subscription is very hard to pirate. cloud computing companies do things like this.

2) make your product free, then earn money on support and other benefits. any serious adopter of your product will be more than willing to pay for support, training, or other benefits like access to an online community. an example of this is the red hat operating system.

3) sell something tangible. this should be an easy one for magicians: sell some piece of equipment or gimmick that is designed for your product.

4) lock down access. this is going the other direction, where usernames and passwords are required to access the product. you can also lock access to an ip address. your media can still be stolen however

realize that sometimes piracy is GOOD for your product. this can be free publicity that leads new customers to your door. there is a balance here, good luck.

In the USA all published materials are automatically Copyrighted. This provides no protection against the material being "ripped-off" -- only a basis for suing if you are financially damaged.

I admire Gary for wanting to find only those magicians who will share his passion -- and will make the assumption that his work has some value. I am saddened that he has found few magicians with any ethics -- perhaps he is looking in the wrong places. Most people in our culture have shoddy ethics in my view. I wonder if Gary has ever purchased anything from a Spam post or ever lied to his employer. We live in a society in which "ripping off" is considered normal practice. Thus, I agree with LO that the strongly stated concern over "being ripped off" implies that there is something worth being ripped off. I would have asked the question differently, but the question is still valid.

Gary -- what is it about your book that justifies any price, expenditure of time to read or reflection on one's ethics? If you wish an experienced evaluation of your work I will be happy to provide it, but so far, your credibility suffers from your assumptions that everyone wants to steal from you. From my experienced position, your passion over this subject should outweigh concerns over money or desire for recognition. "Keeping your light under a basket" won't provide either.

If you have something that will encourage performers to embrace Hindu C&B I am all for it -- whether it is original or not matters little. Those magicians with shoddy ethics may be the ones who need the help or inspiration -- carring little about originality -- they just want simple.

Your title says "ANY ideas or input appreciated." Wish this were "proved true" in the later posts.

CONGRATULATIONS DONNIE!
You hit the nail right on the head.
Unfortunately due to this extreme adherence to keeping the 'traditional' work so secretive, this style of performing has truly become a dying art. There are less than 10 people in the entire world that know the 'real' work and only 1 of them is willing to teach it - me.

Because this 'traditional style' of performing Cheppum Panthum has become so obscure I forgive all those that are unaware of its existence.

I am not here to sell books to magicians or anything else for that matter. Nor do I need to prove anything to anyone. Frankly I feel only very few magicians deserve to gain this knowledge.One can not make any money with my attitude. The few who know this style in India have absolutely no desire to market it. In fact I am extremely reticent about sharing it myself. It is THAT good.

If you want to share your book only with magicians who have the same passion for said trick as you do, my suggestion is that you start a website and make the book available (for free of for purchase via PayPal or some other payment processor) only to people who can send you some proof of their activity in said type of magic. It would be up to you to decide what would constitute solid proof that would make you trust them with your book.

Create the most luxurious gilded, leather bound, foil stamped & embossed book you can, with matching slip case and sell it for $2000 a copy. Limited to 100, autographed by the author.
You recoup your expenses and make certain the book is not in the hands of anyone who is just going to give it away.

An issue faced by many professions in which knowledge is an important asset, e.g:

Greetings from India. This reply is directed to Lawrence O and Funsway. I am a new user and both of you sir, belong to the Inner Circle. I do not gauge people by the number of posts that they put in the Café but by the content it has. It is most unfortunate that both of you gentlemen are doing nothing but insulting a fellow magician who has a real concern. It is apparent that you have no idea about what Gary has done and what his fundamental research is. Pete,Bill Palmer, Donnie, and others know what he is talking about as do I because we have been with him in all the discussions in the various forums. Gentlemen, let me inform you that, though in India the cups and balls is performed by every street magician, at an academic level the trick is secretly guarded by 10 people in its true historical form. the last guru was Vazhakunnam Neelakanthan Namboothiri (I bet you cannot even pronounce the name correctly). He was so good that even the late P.C. Sorcar (senior) went from Calcutta to Kerala (i.e. like saying from Washington to New Mexico in the US) to learn the Hindu Cups and Balls from Vazhakunnam and that too when he was an International Magic Star and the other a humble village magician.

Magic is very secretive in India, specially the traditional one, that accounts for the vsnishing of the Indian Rope trick and its partial revival. Now about five magicians are performing it in India. Fortunately the mentality is changing and the knowledge is passed from the master to the disciple better know as the guru shyshia parampara. Vazhakunnam's disciple was Nanu who is the current master of the trick. Come to think of it, he has not let anyone film him do the full trick till date even when hefty amounts have been offered to him. Gary has learned the trick from Nanu himself. Does that mean anything to you? I am an Indian and I would die to learn the trick from a master like Nanu, but that is not happening. God knows how Gary was able to convince him. and Guru Nanu must have seen some real dedication in Gary to agree to teach the trick to him. In a recent interview Nanu had expressed a with a little dismay that magicians are not willing to learn sleights of hand and want to perform with apparatus magic. He also mentioned that an American magician had shown interest in the trick and he taught it to him. But he does not know what happened of that.

Those who have respect and are studying this trick know that Gary is the first western magician who has done some fundamental research in the trick and spent time and money to revive the dying trick. Just to give an example, he got Hindu cups hand made with coconuts as they were originally made in India. Even the set I have are from him as they are impossible to get in India. I know that he is working with the brass version which is a later addition. If you go through his earlier posts you would know all this. I tried to have a similar set made on my own but was unable to have this done as coconut craft in itself is a dying art.

As Donnie Buckley brightly puts it:

Do you realize that Cheppum Panthum has NEVER been in print? That Cheppum Panthum has only ever been handed down from one generation to the next (from father to son) inside a very limited number of families? And that MOST of what we know about Indian Cups and Balls is wrong? Do you realize that the Western Cups and Balls (as we know it today) was an INTERPRETATION of what the Indians were doing and that no one from outside has ever REALLY been taught their techniques?

Honestly, if Gary publishes the REAL work on this trick, he is breaking a 5000 year tradition (at least) and you are totally underestimating the value of the information that he has gathered.

As for you Gary, I understand that you were not well since the last year or so and hence the project has been delayed, and I understand your concern. My daughter recently got a gift on her birthday and that was a story book with pictures personalised for her. She is the friend of the main character of the book and appears with her name there. This is now possible with the latest printing technology. By the way it is a hard bound copy. You could use a similar technique so even if someone with band intentions scans your book his name would appear in all the pages and it would be possible to "nail" him. Billappleton has also given some interesting suggestions.

And my request to you Gary, if you are feeling fine health wise, please finish the book. Once the book is out those who speak more than they should, would realise that the best they can do when they are not contributing for the enhancement of magic and are not helping a fellow magician should best keep quiet. For me you are the first and the only Western magician who dedicated his life to Cheppum Panthum and wrote about it after learning it from the masters and did not speculate about elephant bells and nipples from feeder bottles. I am sure people who know understand what I am referring to. Please book the first copy for me, and remember this come from a guy who owns every existing reference on Hindu Cups and Balls, I would not miss your book at any cost as I am sure it would be the best book on the topic. And please don't teach all the six techniques of showing both the hands empty after the first vanish as then we Indians would not have any secret to preserve.

No offense, but the guy is going to sell out a 5000 year tradition to everybody who wants it, and you as an indian are ok with that?

If this does happen to get published where simpletons like me can purchase it, this will definitely be on my must have list. If it isn't available to people like me, then I must still thank you for taking your time and all the effort you've went thru to write something up as unique as this.

Maharajademagia,

Thank you for explaining the situation we have today concerning the traditional style of performing the Hindu Cups and Balls.
I will be just as choosy as Nanu in selecting students.
I like Donnie's idea of only publishing a limited amount of books.
I am putting an emphasis on my quality teaching not on my quantity of sales.
The personalized watermark idea is also very good.
Thank you again for your supportive comments.
I will most definitely put aside a book for you.

Regards,
Gary (Jadoo)

A person with a real concern does not start off by questioning the ethics of people he has never met. His original post does nothing to establish any credibility nor generate serious interest in what he has done, or claims to.

We (everyone) has no idea of what he has done because he shares nothing. Lawrence asked a question that went unanswered. I later asked another question that has gone unanswered.

So, who is insulted here?

The topic claims appreciation of any and all posts. He seeks input from many sources to resolve some problem not yet clear. I hope he can balance all of the posts, answer questions and find the answers he seeks.

You implication that we should gauge his efforts by some special knowledge of what does not exist is silly.

The is a quote even more ancient than your Indian culture -- "You may be right, you may be wrong -- what matters is whether or not I should care!"

I have expressed an interest and offered to help. Now we wait.

Here is a thread concerning my work:

http://themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic......m=115&79

Many Thanks -- that helps a lot, though the demo has been eliminated.

I'd like to remind that Eddie Joseph was from India born in Calcutta of English parentage and aka "Eddie Jason". Inspired at age 12 seeing the Nicola show, he then became a businessman in Calcutta and Bombay and semi-pro magician as early as 18 (c1917) until 1945 when he turned full-time pro.
He was chosen to appear in the Silver Jubillee Show for King George V. He was also the first magician to do magic over the radio in India in 1933, making over 30 broadcasts from the All India Radio stations in Calcutta, Bombay and Lucknow. He had worked out an act in which he used no apparatus except ordinary and borrowed objects. He also did a mental act assisted by his wife, Sarah.
For many years, Joseph was the Indian Representative of the I.B.M. and he was active in the Society of Indian Magicians. During World War II, he was drafted to do a turn in a revue for the entertainment of British and American servicemen. He and his wife traveled all over India for the balance of the war.
He wrote over 70 books and pamphlets and contributed many articles to Genii and The New Tops. Joseph's first contribution to The Linking Ring was in the September, 1927 issue. In 1947 he received the Sphinx Award. Edited the 8 issues of "The Magical Digest" (Bombay) 1947-48. He later moved to the UK, working for Max Andrews. The IBM Ring in Bombay, India is known as the Eddie Joseph Ring.
Eddie Joseph passed away in London in June of 1974.
One of his first printed release in the UK in 1956 was about the Hindu Cups and reprinted a stencil that he had edited earlier in India.
On what ground does the statement expressed in this thread, that all of the versions of the Hindu Cups are only occidental interpretations of the routines performed in India ? Does it constitutes a post mortem accusation against Eddie Joseph that his work was a fraud?
Could what is claimed as original in Gary's work be marginal ? If Gary is reluctant to release elements, which I could understand, could he at least supply some historical background to the statement that what he has is the only way the Hindu cups were performed for 5000 years in India?

Lawrence O,
Where do I ever say that what I have is the only way the
Hindu cups were performed for 5000 years in India?

Lawrence O,
Have you even read Pete Biro's book or Eddie Joseph's book on the Hindu cups and balls?
You obviously haven't read either book.
If you did you would recall that both authors state in the beginning of their books that the following routine is a personal interpretation of the routines performed in India, hence Pete's routine is not sitting down nor is Joseph's. Also Joseph uses rubber baby pacifiers instead of balls. Joseph admits that the Indians do not use pacifiers and that this is his addition.

It is nice that you have these lists of books on specific categories though it would be nicer if you actually read them.

Regards,
Gary Kosnitzky

Lawrence O,

Why did you plagiarize this and try to pass it off as your own work?:

http://geniimagazine.com/magicpedia/Eddie_Joseph

That is despicable.

Who is the fraud here?
Do you have any thoughts of your own or do you just copy and paste?

Really no need for the combative and strident tone, Gary.

This is an Internet forum, not a personal conversation. Don't take it so seriously.