I have never been a member of a magic club.

The above reason, as you may have correctly guessed, inspired this posting.

What I'd like to know is what I have missed out on.
I know I have missed out on conversing and sharing effects and ideas with other magicians, but I'm not sure if this could be considered a bad thing necessarily.

I have heard from a few sources that magic clubs can condition you into certain and set ways of thinking which are not always positive.

Maybe being a member of a magic club would have broadened my perspective on magic.
But, quite frankly, I've done that here at the Cafe.

How has being a member of a magic club helped you?
What do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of not having attended one?

Many thanks,
Stephen
:carrot:

The reasons for joining a magic club are about as varied as the members.
Some like the social atmosphere, some like to watch the magic, some like to do the magic, some even like the politics (when that rears its ugly head!).
But the basic advantage is one that has been stated time and time again:
It gives you a place to fail!
That's not bad, by any means. What that means is that it gives you a place to perform in front of an audience and, if something goes wrong, it's no big deal, because everybody else was in the same position at one time or another.
Belonging to a magic club gives the new performer the opportunity to perform before an audience that can, very often, help him or her with the handling or routining of a specific trick.
It is -- or should be -- a non-judgmental audience, that gives honest criticism.
That is the key thing that a real-life club can provide that boards like the Magic Cafe (good as it is) cannot.
The downside is that there is a tendency to follow the accepted method of doing something, whether it is a sleight or a full routine, without actually breaking new ground. And that new ground is what builds magic.
cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com

One of the biggest Pros: There are people there who will critique your act and give you advise.

One of the biggest cons: There are people there who will critique your act and give you advise.

You have to be careful, particularly if someone is a beginner, to sift out the good advice from the bad.

Just because the guy can do an invisible pass, and a perfect faro shuffle, doesn't mean he knows anything at all about performing magic. The guy who does a few simple card tricks, and a variety of ropes, sponge balls etc, and is gigging all the time, may be a far better bet. It all depends what you are wanting to learn.

My thoughts

Andy

Andy has it exactly right: You've got to know who to listen to and who not to.
Trouble is, by the time you know that, you probably don't need their advice!
cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com

Hi,
when I started performing adult cabaret I used to regularly invite 3 aquaintances not good friends, not magicians to my gigs to give me honest feed back. This gave better feed back than any magician would have.
phillip

JusOne of the biggest Pros: There are people there who will critique your act and give you advise.

One of the biggest cons: There are people there who will critique your act and give you advise.

You have to be careful, particularly if someone is a beginner, to sift out the good advice from the bad.

Often there are many members who perform only very few basic card tricks and a variety
of rather obvious drawn out rope and sponge ball tricks tying to get buy on Rather dated jokes and buiness that they beleive is entertainment though they either never work or work for next to nothing. Then there is the magician who understands the impact of strong magic and strong entertainment combined. one who will put in the practice if the Effect is worth it. yet will use a simple method to if that is what's required.
This magician works continualy for high fees
yet the other magicians in the club call him as a "mechanic" .

(this is not a dig Andy, Just an alternate senario to balance yours up)

phillip

I think a good magic club is a lot like this forum, but in person. Varying view points from different experiences and a willingness to further the art through shared discussion and assistance. I think it can be a powerful part of a repertoire of resources for most magicians.

On another note: combined resources can do a lot. Lectures, videos, etc. for the benefit of the members of the club.

In "Magic and Meaning" Eugene Burger states:

"Individuals come to the magic club because they are interested in magic. Then they meet the club members, many of whom have no deep respect for magic because they think it is easy. And so the flame of interest goes out."

In reading some of Eugene's other comments in this book he makes me wonder if magic clubs are, in some ways, holding magic back by keeping magic in a strict and set status quo without much room for furthering magic.

To what extent would you agree with this (if at all) and what are your thoughts on Eugene's comment about many magic club members thinking magic is easy?

Many thanks for the feedback here so far.

Stephen
:carrot:

My experience in the one magic club of which I've been a member is the opposite. Most everyone there respects the art and skill required to perform. So I'd say it's been the opposite. Most DON'T find magic to be "easy" (to perform well) and are looking for ways to improve.

I think that most would like to "further magic", but now we get into a different realm. There's a lot to be said of the "mastermind principle" (see Napoleon Hill) whereing multiple brains thinking about the same problem are multiplicative in nature rather than additive. However, I don't know how many people are truly gifted at developmental thought in magic (more people buy magic than produce it). Also, any "thing" that has a deep historical foundation is difficult to improve upon by leaps and bounds (the thought almost has to go through developmental stages, barring any quantum leap in technology).

So, cars evolve and we don't often see the concept car immediately in production - rather, the technology from such cars "seeps down" to the production line. Magic evolves as well - people come up with new ideas and those are improved upon by the whole as the principles are put into use. New technology occassionally allows completely new ideas, and this is where a lot of thought comes, I think (eg: LED's allowed the development of D'Lites, etc.).

Just some of my rambling thoughts...

Jon

Hi PB. (What does that stand for?)

Touche'

Couldn't agree with you more, It's just that you get far more of the first two examples than the one you gave. (At least in every magic club I've ever attended.)

BTW & IMHO Best example of the type of guy you mention....... David Williamson. Did you see his new lecture at Blackpool? Technically faultless, and by no means easy, but what a funny guy as well.

To sum up my thoughts on clubs.

You can certainly learn new effects and probably more important, little "Tips and wrinkles" on the routines you already have. It's also a place for beginners to perform apart from friends and family (who as we know are the worst audience in the world. usually)

Join a club. I love them!

Andy

Hi Andy,
PB is actually P.B. Phillip Brian my first and second names I always sign off as Phillip at the bottom of my posts but most refer to me as PB on this forum.
Thats fine by me
Phillip

See now, I was guessing "Peanut Butter". Silly me.

TW

I have a question for someone familiar with magic clubs generally(although I did attend one for a short time in college):

Are they really a safe place to fail and learn from understanding comrades or more a place of one-up-manship and criticism? A place of freindly competition or a place where anger brews at inexperience?

I am sure it can be both, but what is the general tenor out there these days?

alleycat

I have had a "love - not love" relation with magic clubs for close to 25 years. (You would think that I would have made a decision by now )

If you want to meet a group of folks who share a passion of yours, by all means, go, participate, perform, run for office and work to make the club something special.

If you want a variety of opinions - all in the best intentions - of your performance and style of magic, by all means go...

If you to engage in politics and argue over stuff, by all means, stay home as there are a bunch of folks already sitting around the table...

Clubs like most of life are what we make them. There are both pluses and minuses.

The choice belongs to each of us.

Alleycat asks: "Are they (magic clubs) really a safe place to fail and learn from understanding comrades or more a place of one-up-manship and criticism?"

Well, you can look at magic clubs the way you can look at the various message boards and forums on the 'net.

This one is terrific, with members with all sorts of interests and skill levels, willing to help any and all who show a real interest.

And then there are others that are populated by what might be termed the finger-flingers, who refuse to help or talk to anyone who can't do a triple-shift, double cull, widget palm (whatever THAT is!).

And then there are those that are simply sounding boards for people (generally old geezers) with too much time on their hands, who criticize everything and everyone.

And, on the other side of that coin, are the boards that are a haven for the young and arrogant, who presume that, because they know something, they therefore know everything.

And on it goes.

However, perhaps I'm making this more depressing that it really is.

I suspect the current ratio is about the same as it has always been; just different clubs have taken over different slots.

On the whole, I would suggest that most magic clubs are still a good thing; if you look hard enough, you will almost always find someone who will be honest in his/her criticism and helpful in his/her suggestions.

cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com

The magic club I attended in college was always interesting and helpful. There were about a dozen students, professors, and businessmen who each tried to bring something to the table each week.
At that time, I never had a bad experience. (I don't know how the others felt!)

alleycat

We have two clubs in town, one formal and one informal. I think you should visit the clubs nearby and decide. I chose the informal one.
The magicians there:
1. Have a love and respect for magic
2. Perform regularly for charities
3. Have a Young Magicians club for training
4. Encourage you to perform and practice
5. Politely give advice
We also love to have visitors, so next time you're in Adelaide, South Australia, please pay us a visit it's one of the friendly places in this world.

I am a member of two clubs. As in most organizations, one gets out of it about what one puts into it.

A lot of people complain about and belittle magic clubs for some of the things that admittedly happen - pettiness, bad magic, politics, etc. But complaining is not enough. It takes work to make joining and attending a magic club a valuable investment of time.

In Atlanta, we have two clubs. Both have been through their ups and downs, but both are experiencing a bit of an upswing now. Most clubs tend to welcome someone who is willing to expend effort to improve things. And the excitement of creating a better magic club -- one where constructive feedback, consistent improvement, and meaningful activities are happening -- well, it's contagious.

JMT

Hey gang,
I have been on the cafe for quite some time just reading but I really wanted to reach out to people and ask this question about the relevance of magic clubs these days.
I have been the president of my local club three times and am currently the prez again. I have noticed, not just a decline in membership since the nineties but also a steep decline in the investment of the remaining members. I know of a few professional magicians in my town that just simply don't come to meetings or are members at all. I have tried to bring them back into the fold but they have, for a myriad of reasons said that the club doesn't work for them. One past member even said, and I am quoting, "I have gotten all I can from the club."
I don't think that the clubs of today can continue to provide what they did thirty years ago as most of these things are available easily through the internet. I can watch any lecturer I wish from the comfort of my living room without having to put my shoes on or belong to a club.
I have heard people say that a club is a good place to fail. I agree but is that really the only thing we can offer our membership?

I am reaching out to find out what I can do to provide real value to my membership to strengthen membership and keep my local club alive.

Any thoughts would be very welcome

Dave

The atmosphere of any gentlemen’s club ought to be of comfort and genial fellowship. It is all about the food: get a good cook and a long dining table, which will be the focal point at which all joints and dishes are served. Then the boys can indulge in a bit of after-dinner fun.