I've been performing magic for 35 years now, and when it came to children's magic I was always told to stay away from fire, knives, or anything harmful because if you do it, some children will do it. Several months ago I started a post questioning the ethics of Silly Billy's Dr. Blood act and was nearly crucified. Some were even vicious! He may be coming to lecture here in Memphis soon, so I thought I would bring this subject up again. Keep in mind, this is about discussion. In the last post about this subject, many threw insults and personal jabs at me about even questioning his Dr. Blood act. Some even said this act was ingenious. I think he just crossed the line that no one had the @#&*! to do. Don't get me wrong, he's a wonderful clown/magician, I just disagree with his Dr. Blood act. Look for yourself. http://www.sillybillymagic.com/drblood.html

Rappel

By the way, I have e-mailed him, but he never responded and I am not and never have been a childrens performer. That does not mean my opinion does not matter though.

Rappel

First off, thank you for bringing this discussion to the forefront. It is an important topic that has never been properly addressed here on this forum.
I am sure that we will all discuss this with the demeanor and respect it so rightly deserves.

Secondly, What does it matter to you what Silly Billy performs?

Thirdly, who crowned you arbiter of what is proper to perform or not?

You wrote:


Who told you this and when? Children today are far more sophisticated than they were 35 years ago, especially in New York, Silly Billy's stomping ground. In reality there are no hard and fast rules in the world of performing and what works for one person very well might not for another. The marketplace generally rules in this circumstance and if Dr. Blood was inappropriate for a children's entertainment it wouldn't get booked. Dr. Blood however is quite successful and thus deemed by the public to be an acceptable spectacle for children to watch.
If you think otherwise, don't hire him for your kids birthday party.

You continued:


I've seen no articles in the paper nor reports on the news of children in New York mutilating themselves or others after seeing a Dr. Blood show so obviously children today understand the difference between a theatrical performance and the real world.

Still more:



So you're giving it another go. Again why? I really don't see this as an ethical dilemma. If you think his act is inappropriate don't hire him.

It gets interesting now:


So what, you're planning to ambush him at his lecture? Hoping to get ammunition here so you look like a "Big Man" calling him out over tis subject when he comes to lecture? This actually opens up a better discussion on the ethics of magic. Is it OK to deride a performers skills when he has so generously offered to come to your club to share his knowledge?

And you still keep going:


You pull at Superman's cape you got expect some flack.

Yet more:


Line? What line? I didn't see no line. So I suppose this means that you won't be doing your own Dr. Blood tribute act anytime soon.

The big finish


And you are free to do so. Opinions are as they say like, well you know what, every ones got one. Doesn't make your opinion right nor any better than mine.
I still don't really understand why you care what Silly Billy does in his act all those miles away. Your not one of those self righteous types who looses sleep at night cause you know someone somewhere is doing something you feel they ought not be doing. It's a big world out there full of all sorts of different people who like doing or watching different things. Obviously there are people who like watching Dr. Blood. You seem to not be one of them so don't watch him but don't try to stop any one else who might like to.



Shocked, I'm shocked that he didn't respond to your criticisms. What's the world coming to?


This is quite obvious.


Wanna Bet?

Rappel

Hello Pain,
I knew you would be the first to respond. I'm not the angry one. I would like to hear some "discussion" about this, not insults! No, I don't plan on going to his lecture. You just assumed that. In your response Pain, I did not read one single intelligent remark from you about this, just more insults toward me. Can you not get any deeper in this discussion without the personal shots? And just because I am not a childrens perfromer, my opinion does not matter??

Rappel

I happen to have strong views about animal acts... should we start slamming all them?

Each performer should know his audiences and limits. Dr blood is a character quite separate from Silly Billy.

And ambushing a performer at a lecture with a premeditated agenda to disrupt is not on in my books....

I'm not angry, to be angry I'd have to care.



If you're not planning on attending the lecture then why did you bring it up?



Because it didn't merit any intelligent response whatsoever. It's a stupid subject, but then that's just my opinion.



Seems to be pretty deep in here already.




Darn straight.

Seriously. You haven't framed your argument at all well. You simply come here out of the blue and attack a well known entertainer for no other reason than some antiquated belief about the nature of children's performing. It seems we went through this whole tedious discussion before with the diaper on the head gag and to whether that was appropriate or not just after his book was released. In the end it simply all boils down to if it works for you and your character in the context of your performance then do it, if it doesn't don't. There simply are no hard and fast rules, only guidelines.
Your argument could have been bolstered if you could have submitted evidence that children were somehow harmed after witnessing a Dr. Blood performance but you didn't. Your entire argument simply rests on you think he crossed a line and you don't like it. There is tons of stuff I don't like but I'm not starting threads here challenging people to defend what I think is indefensible.
It's perfectly fine not to like a performer or his material. It's however not fine to air ones opinion about it without just cause. He's a bad performer because he steals material is completely different than he's a bad performer because he does stuff I don't like.

Rappel,

My first impression from seeing the website is the same as yours. That said, it is just marketing, and the proof is always in the pudding, and since I haven't seen the show, I can't really comment on how he pulls it off. I don't know if you've read Seriously Silly or not, but if you haven't, give it a look -- he's an extremely intelligent thinker and if anybody knows how to break rules and get away with it, he will.

No SeaDawg, I would never ambush any performer in public, that's ridiculous for anyone to do such a thing. I have not attacked Mr. Friedman, just questioning his choice of material for such small children. Look at the pictures, I see some children 2-3 years old. Yea he can do anything he wants, that's fine, but some guy jabbing a knife into his arm and plucking his eyeball out, in front of 3 year olds? Come on. Older kids, sure, but not really young children. Do all the parents bringing their children to the party know that their 4 or 5 year old will see this? I really doubt it. I'm willing to bet Mr. Friedman does get complaints from some parents. Pain, do you have children?
My opinion may not matter to you or others, but I have one. And this post does merit an intelligent response.

Now Pain, continue your personal jabs. That seems to be your way of expressing your opinions to others you disagree with.

Rappel

You know, I disagree with some of Payne's statements in this thread, but have yet to see a personal one. If you find them to be of a personal attack nature, report them. There's a little button on every post just for that. He disagrees with your approach, that's not the same as a personal attack, and believe me, I know personal attacks in forums.

I mostly agree with what Payne has said about your post, and the subject. There are no "Rules" concerning subject matter. There isn't even a standards and practices board. I agree with what you were "told" though. I wouldn't touch this stuff with a 10 foot pole. That's my decision. I think it is a liability nightmare. I think it is a little irresponsible, and I think Dr. Blood is likely to see some minor, if not major issues relating to his material. That doesn't mean he should stop, or that anyone else shouldn't start. "You pays your price, you takes your chances." Each entertainer has to decide how much "risk" he or she is willing to embrace here. I am making an observation, I am making a prediction, but I am not going to suggest he or anyone else should act on my views.

Ok, maybe not personal jabs, but man, Pain is vicious. I'd read Silly Billy's column in Magic Magazine for many years and always looked forward to his writings, and I guess that is what shocked me when I went to his website. I never said the guy should quite this act, I just disagree with his views, or anyone elses, when it comes to this particular act. Now, we know many magicians will steal a joke, an idea, an act, a trick or whatever he likes, and if Silly Billy's Dr. Blood act is so ingenius, like some say, where are all the copycats? Maybe in New York it's accepted, but I think most American parents would not like their small children seeing such things. I'm more disappointed than anything. I always thought Silly Billy was the guy to look up to when it came to successful clowning and magic for children. Yea, he may be successful, but I still think it's wrong for the very young. So in childrens' performance, anything goes now? Because you can? I disagree. Are there any boundries anymore when it comes to children magic? Obviously some think not. No I'm not going to do anything about it. I just think this subject, because Silly Billy is so well known by many magicians and admired, is something that should be addressed.

Rappel

Have you read his book? Do you know his thinking behind the Dr. Blood act? Or are you condeming it because it offends you?
He created this act to capture an aging birthday market that felt it was now too old and sophisticated for the original Silly Billy act. It is designed and marketed for an older crowd.
From the clips I've seen of the program it is very tongue in cheek and not at all serious. The kids clearly nderstand it's all pretend and meant in scary, disgusting fun.
I, like Payne, really don't understand your posting your disapproval here in this forum. what do you intend to accomplish here? Are you looking for an apology from Silly Billy or a pledge that he will never traumatize a child again. Are you looking to be acknowledged as a moral or ethical superior because you would never stoop to performing this type of material. Really, what is it you want?

Rappel wrote:

If he performed his Dr. Blood show, as shown at his web site, for 3-year-old children, I'd agree with you, but he has an age limit listed for the main Dr. Blood show. That age limit is 7 years old and older.

He also has a "kinder, gentler" version of his show for 5 and 6 year olds." In the picture for that show at the bottom of the description page, it appears the children have wax fangs. Those are fun at that age. (I know that from experience when I was that young!)

To find the age limit, click the link in your first post and then click the link marked, "description of show", which is the first prominent link on the upper right of the page.

The children on the page I just cited look considerably older than 2-3 years old, with the exception of the children in the last pictures, who are for his milder show for the younger children. The children in that last picture might pass for 4, but they all look older than 3. I would guess they are in kindergarten, i.e. 5. None of them appear to be toddlers. But, the main show, which is the one with some gore, is for 7 year old children and up.

There is a description of the psychology of the show on that page, that might put your mind at rest.

I would not have hired him to play Dr. Blood for my son, but that's a matter of my own taste. I would have hired him for some of his other characters. However, Dr. Blood is clearly a tongue-in-cheek silly character, and the children, who I'm sure all go to doctors, are all easily old enough to realize it's fake.

Second graders are not going to imitate someone wielding a knife and cut themselves or someone else, any more than an adult would do that.

Now, I've never seen the Dr. Blood act, so it could be highly offensive, or it could be truly wonderful. I'm pretty sure it's the latter simply because parents would complain, and also multiple reviewers wouldn't praise his show if it was awful for children.

Parents do not take negative effects on their children lightly. Silly Billy couldn't make a living if parents didn't like his show, he'd quickly get a bad reputation. From what I've read, he has a very good reputation.

Truthteller,you ask why I would post such a thing? Do you remember the area of this forum you clicked on?

Right or Wrong?
Thoughts and discussions pertaining to the generally accepted rules and standards of conduct as it relates to members of the magic industry who create, manufacture or publish. This forum is all about Ethics.

Am I in the wrong part of the Magiccafe? Or maybe you think I just should not bring this up for conversation on the forum.

Rappel

Personally I wouldn't perform the act for children simply to avoid possible lawsuits (C'mon people have sued because coffee was hot and WON!)

But he makes it clear that they are merely TRICKS and not real, plus at the end of his show he teaches the kids how to perform a few gross out tricks of their own which they would more than likely keep too busy with to try to chop off their hands.

Well, I think the man is brilliant for tapping into a market that would noramlly over look his services becasue of the age of the kids. I also think that parents tpyically have an idea of what they deem appropriate for their children. If they just hired him for a gig and he showed up as Dr Blood w/ no advance warning, that is an issue. However, from what I can see, the people booking this show know exactly what they are getting when they hire this particular charecter. The people who make the hiring decision also know the ages of the children that will be at the party and are therefore in a position to make an informed decision after reading the site or talking to Billy.

You also don't know if he gives any kind of disclaimer during his show.

I am not condeming him, and his act does not offend me, but this is a good time to talk about ethics in childrens' magic. We have to be resposible adults when it comes to performing for children. I'm not even saying he is being irresposible. Maybe Mr. Friedman is being as resposible as he can with this type of act, but since he is "the man" and many magicians look up to him, his ideas and thoughts on childrens magic, some will copy his act, because it's so "BRILLIANT". I think that if a trend of this type of act starts, then there will be irresposible weekend magi's copying the blood and gore show and eventually children will get hurt. No, that's not Mr. Friedman's problem, but he should be aware of his influence on other "wanna bees"

He has no responsibility for what others do. He puts on an act that the parents choose to hire him for. Why should he have to care or worry about what other magicians will do?

I'd be more worried then about Chris Angel than Dr. Blood. The Jackass movies have shown that teens are far more impressionable and likely to replicate stunts they see on TV than very young children are. Thus the chances are greater that some idiot teenager is going to try to hang himself on fish hooks or set themselves on fire because they saw Angel do it on TV than a a member of Silly Billy's audience is going to carve up their sister with a kitchen knife because they saw a Dr. Blood show.
So where's your moral outrage over Chris Angels antics?
But wait, someone seeing Lances Burton's show might start abusing small birds when they try to stuff them into handkerchiefs. Someone trying to emulate Blaine might get beat up when they approach a stranger while mumbling something about showing them something weird.
You have a point that we should be mindful of what we are exposing our children to. It has already been pointed out that Silly Billy is very open and honest about his Dr. Blood show. It's not like the parents are booking a clown act and ending up with an abattoir. It is the parents responsibility to control what their child sees and no one else's. Thus your argument is mute. As for copycat performers mimicking the Dr. Blood show. Not Mr Freidman's problem, aside from a litigious point of view.
If another performer attempts this type of performance and botches the job it is on his head and not Silly Billy's.
There are already many irresponsible magicians out there doing everything from giving balloon animals to underage kids to using demeaning or offencive material.
Why no posts from you on these topics?

Seeing Lance made me want to fence with figures from the underworld and try to avoid being hanged. Guess we shoudl shut down his theatre lest I go out and hurt myself

Payne, you ask me why not post about other subjects on ethics? There are many things in magic and the related arts that we should address. This is just one of them. You may think that this whole discussion is stupid, but I disagree.