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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts 
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The crediting to Houdini is due to at least two, if not three, different publications of the sleight with Houdini's name, all prior to the publication of Expert at the Card Table. The move has been credited to Houdini in accord with the practice of credits. We must respect the rules of credit, no matter what we think or we can not given credit to anyone for anything.
Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Hideo Kato Inner circle Tokyo 5649 Posts
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On 2005-06-25 16:09, bishthemagish wrote: As I already pointed, Magician's Handbook was published in 1901, one year before Expert At The Card Table was published. In it, P.T.Selbit wrote "For the knowlege of the movement I am indebted to my friend Mr.Harry Houdini". Hideo Kato |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-06-25 18:59, tommy wrote: In what books or publications credit Houdini did this move that were published before 1902? Houdini was born in 1874. He started to call himself Houdini at the age of 17. But that would make Harry Houdini 23 at the time the Expert at the card table was published. The king of cards poster came at the time he was supposed to be playing in the Welch Brothers Circus - a small tent show This was recorded to be 1895. seven years before the expert at the card table. That would make Houdini 21 at the time he was with the circus. According to the Illustrated history of magic - Christopher writes that this was a 26 week booking. But some historians in circus and at the Circus world Museum Baraboo WI have not found anything on this circus. No posters, bills or other paper (except Houdini's one king of cards poster) that this circus have been found so the circus may not have existed! But when talking about Houdini he invented a lot of Myth about himself. Like how to open British handcuffs. Sew a piece of lead into your pants above your knee and then hit the cuffs on this lead really hard and they will open. I would imagine that if someone did this they would bust their kneecap. How about dislocating both your shoulders in order to get out of a straitjacket? Or half swallowing to hide locks and picks? Then vomit them later after being locked in a cell? Houdini loaded shot from a gun into the handcuffs of the Great Raymond so he could not escape and they had a fist fight over it at a British magic club. According to David Bamberg in the book Illusion show. I feel Vernon most likely is right about him. In the Vernon Chronicles said he knew him well and Bess Houdini (Houdini's wife) was godmother to Dai Vernon's son Ted. In what books or publications credit Houdini did this move that were published before 1902? Houdini was born in 1874. He started to call himself Houdini at the age of 17. But that would make Harry Houdini 28 at the time the Expert at the card table was published. According to the Illustrated history of magic - Christopher writes that he was in London in 1900. I just had a wacky thought - what would happen if Houdini turned out to be Erdnase?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Hideo Kato Inner circle Tokyo 5649 Posts
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On 2005-06-25 22:34, bishthemagish wrote: As I have already mentioned, it is Darwin Ortiz who mentioned the sleight was described in "The Magician's Handbook" by P.T.Selbit (1901). As I don't have that Selbit book, I am only believeing Mr.Ortiz. Hideo Kato |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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Hi Glen
Sorry, I had to go. The details are here in this topic. http://geniimagazine.com/forum/cgi-bin/u......7#000000 I am not saying you are not right as you might well be all I say is I think we can not take the move away from Houdini based on our opinions but of course we can have an opinion. You might change your opinion on the move being Houdini in the light of this evidence, which it seems you were not aware of before. Hope this helps you understand why I think it is Houdini’s. I can see Vernon did not want to take false praise for beating the “The King of Cards” as Houdini was calling himself. To say “Houdini did not do magic, he did escapes” as Vernon said seems to me to take the point a bit too far and it is not altogether true. However what I find intriguing. is the whole thing. We have: Vernon, a fanatic about Erdnase Houdini with a move in Expert at the Card Table. Vernon and Houdini meet, where Vernon shows Houdini he is a great card guy. Both have an interest in Cardsharps and the history of magic. Houdini had the greatest collection of magic books etc in the world. Was a Robert Houdin fan, so much so that he takes Houdins name, who just happens to have wrote a book like Erdnase about cardsharps years before Erdnase. You would think in these circumstances Vernon and Houdini would have become great friends and have had at least a very interesting talk about Erdnase. Has anyone ever read about Houdini talking about Erdnase or Expert at The Card, if he did not I will find it strange because I am certain he would have read the book and spotted his own move. Regards Tommy P.S I am disappointed to learn that Erdnase has moves in his book from other magi because I thought it was all Erdnase apart from the Charlier cut.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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On 2005-06-26 09:09, tommy wrote: Tommy it is not about being right. I am as others in this thread are just giving information as we know it. You throw all the information on the table and then take your best guess as to what the facts could have been. I had no idea that Houdini even met PT Selbit and that Selbit published a book. As I mentioned that the Illustrated history of magic by Christopher puts Houdini in London in 1900 before the Selbit book was published. This info is interesting. Quote:
On 2005-06-26 09:09, tommy wrote: Tommy Houdini made his LIVING doing ESCAPES like I make a living as a hypnotist mostly. And got publicity doing ESCAPES. But Houdini did magic. In fact in his full evening show he did the first part magic and illusions - the second part was the sub trunk - needle trick - water cell and then he closed with the spirit expo. But that was toward the end of his life. Quote:
On 2005-06-26 09:09, tommy wrote: I would say Vernon loved Erdnase. But you have to understand the two men. Houdini was a theater attraction in a big way. Most everything Houdini did was to get his name in the paper bigger and better than anyone else in magic. Everything that Harry Houdini did was for the good of HIS Show and to generate that income. Vernon loved magic. He performed professionally off and on all his life. Houdini did not have the time for many magicians he had a show to run and publicity to generate. This might be a clue as to Vernon's attitude toward Houdini. Vernon speaks highly as to the magicians that took time with him. But I don't really know because I wasn't there. I can only guess. Quote:
On 2005-06-26 09:09, tommy wrote: Perhaps Erdnase and Houdini met - and Houdini being the working magician and Erdnase being the Unknown not working magician - wanted to impress Houdini. Erdnase showed Houdini the move. Or Perhaps Houdini and Erdnase met and Houdini showed Erdnase the move. Then it was published by Selbit and Erdnase. Or perhaps they never met and both had the same idea and both published it. What I find interesting is that Houdini makes a big stink about the Selbit publishing and nothing on the Erdnase publishing. In fact I have no idea if he ever read the Erdnase book. But most likely he did. And Houdini was well known for having a temper... That is why I feel it is Erdnase. But I am only guessing.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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You seem to ignore my earlier point, that Erdnase always took credit for the things that are original with him in the Expert at the Card Table. He was very specific. When the move was not original with him, he left it uncredited.
He did not claim to have originated the color change that has been credited to Houdini. No one else has claimed this sleight as their invention either. You have to read Erdnase carefully to see which moves he claims ownership of, and which he does not. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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Entity
I do not ignore your point, I am just sorry to learn it. On a lighter note have you read the quote from Selbit's book: "In the first place, two midgets must be procured; this will not present much difficulty to an enterprising magician." 
Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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On 2005-06-26 11:47, entity wrote: I understand your point and I see it as another clue. I did not comment on it because I agree with it. And had nothing more to add to it.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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The reason for re-itterating my point was your statements in a prior post:
You wrote: <Perhaps Erdnase and Houdini met - and Houdini being the working magician and Erdnase being the Unknown not working magician - wanted to impress Houdini. Erdnase showed Houdini the move.> and <Or perhaps they never met and both had the same idea and both published it.> and <That is why I feel it is Erdnase.> If you agree with my point that Erdnase claimed credit for his own inventions, but did not claim credit for the Houdini Color change, then what are you saying in the above statements? confused... - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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May I ask what other moves are in Expert at the Card Table that did not originate with Erdnase, moves that are known to have originated with another known party.
For example I know two: Houdini Colour Change and the Charlier Pass. I think Houdini knew who Erdnase was and would not tell Vernon and tormented him about it so Vernon sabotaged Houdini's tank.
Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-06-26 17:10, entity wrote: Because they are also things that should be explored. Each one is a clue to what happened. Houdini was a known magician that HAD A TEMPER. If he got upset at Selbit for giving him credit for a move he invented but did not give his OK to publish. Why would he not blow up in the fact that someone else republished it and then DID NOT give him credit! He put shot into Handcuffs of the Great Raymond and used to set other escape acts up to take a fall - just because they copied his act. Houdini was not the kind of person that a magician wanted to get on his bad side.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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I think I had better stay at the card table, you magicians are too scary for me.
Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-06-26 18:31, bishthemagish wrote: Glenn, You may want to go back and read Lance Pierce's post earlier in this thread. As he mentioned, at the time "Expert at the Card Table" was released, it was not well known amongst magicians. It's likely that Houdini was never even aware of his move being published in the book. It was only after Vernon, over the course of many many years, espoused the virtues of this slim volume that magicans began to take notice. -Jim
Books and Magazines for sale -- more than 200 items (Last updated January 17th, 2014. Link goes to public Google Doc.)
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Lance Pierce Special user 878 Posts
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Vernon used to tell the story of how when he lived in New York, he and a few of his friends would ask (or sometimes taunt) visiting magicians about their diagonal palm shifts. If the visitor didn't know what they were talking about (which was nearly all the time), they knew he wasn't "in." The reason they could do this is because even at that time The Expert at the Card Table wasn't well known among magicians...and that was as late as the 1940's.
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Thanks Jim
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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Did anyone ever put this question to Vernon:
How could Houdini, who did not do magic and was mediocre, invent such a beautiful card move as this colour change? Did anyone ever put this question to Houdini: Did you know who S. W. Erdnase was? Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-06-26 21:54, Lance Pierce wrote: Houdini died Oct. 31 1926 but at that time had quite a large magic library. In fact some think the largest for the time. Houdini and Tommy Downs were friends and Tommy Downs I think wrote a review of the book Expert at the card table for the Sphinx Magazine. Houdini may not have known about the book when it was published. But I feel that he knew about the book before his death. Another clue.
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16551 Posts
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We are talking about a move that Vernon thought was one the greatest and the one and only piece of card magic that his wife loved. Yet Vernon seems to think Houdini, the guy who invented it, knew little about cards!
Which does not make any sense to me. Vernon refers to it as Erdnase which might mean he did not know it was Houdini's or he thought it was not Houdini's move. Even if he knew but thought it was not Houdini's invention, was he not interested in how Houdini came to know it at least a year before Expert at the Card Table came along. Or it might be Vernon did not know all his life that it was Houdini's move but I find that hard to swallow. Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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card123 Loyal user Button moon 208 Posts
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How did Erdnase know about the move if Houdini invented it?
Was it that well known? |
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Posted: Jun 25, 2005 10:59 pm 