I'll let him know, but he's not gonna be happy!

I do not think it is a great leap to think that Erdnase had read Selbit's book and all other books on the art as Erdnase seems to me to be well read and confident about what was known and what was not. Bearing in mind there few books on art at the time it is not unreasonble that he had read everything up to 1902. If he had read the book he would have it was claimed to be Houdini so why should Erdnase not give credit to Houdini.

I am not too sure the Erdnase book was not very well known and respected before Vernon and well before Houdinis death. Would Houdini have ant claim to royalities on Expert at the Card Table? apart from anything else.
Also called himself the king of Cards and Vernon made large of being the man who fooled Houdini. I do not understand why Vernon would make large of fooling Houdini if he thought Houdini was not a great card magician.

Later

I am going to watch "Cooler"

Tommy

Very well spotted. No kudos to be had pulling the wool over the eyes of a blind man.

Another interesting point is that the section where this transformation is found (amongst the other transformations) Erdnase makes no mention of this technique being "theirs" (as he sometimes refers to himself in the plural, leading to believe in a ghost-writer, etc...) while some of the other transformations he does take credit for... so perhaps this alone should tell us that it's not an Erdnase invention...

Either way, it's fun to think about.

Tommy,

You could be right. I'm just suggesting that it's difficult to make assertions about what someone knew or how he knew it when we can't even figure out who he was, not to mention the fact that everything took place over a century ago.

Vernon's exact description of Houdini as a magician was that he was "mediocre." This doesn't mean that Houdini wasn't extremely knowledgable, only that he didn't perform magic or execute sleight of hand in a manner that struck Vernon as being exceptional. The reason Vernon often told the story of fooling Houdini was because Houdini had issued a public challenge that he could not be fooled. Along comes Vernon who fools him -- and no less than seven times with the same effect.

If you look at Vernon's history you will note that he is constantly referring to the late greats and his association with them. Vernon knew that if he wanted to be percieved as a great magician, it helped to have been associated with the other greats. Billing himself as the "Man Who Fooled Houdini" allowed Vernon to capitalize on all the publicity that Houdini garnered for hmself over the years. Houdini was, and still is, the most widely known magician of all time. In fact, his name is in the dictionary, has become a part of the language. Vernon could ride on the coattails of Houdini, use all the press that Houdini earned, and do it at virtually no cost. Being the "Man Who Fooled Hofzinser", for instance, would have gotten him nowhere, but telling the agents that he was the "Man Who Fooled Houdini" certainly had an impact! Pretty savvy marketing, I'd say...

Best, PSC

Paul, what about “The Man Who Fooled the Man Who Fooled Houdini”?

I find it fascinating that the most widely known magician of all time should also have the honour of having one of his inventions in the greatest book on card handling of all time. Moreover he is only one of two magicians whose moves were thought worthy of entrance into Expert at the Card Table by Erdnase.

I think the colour change is a great move and it was, it seems, Houdini's. It is a great piece of engineering.
Houdini called himself the King of Cards and I think he had a great interest in cards, and indeed in artifice judging by his first book. So I think Houdini would have found The Expert at the Card Table very interesting and would have at least wanted to know who Erdnase was, especially when Erdnase had put his move the book. So I find it strange we do not hear about Houdini trying to find Erdnase. The only thing that makes sense to me about him not doing so would be if he already knew who Erdnase was. If you were Houdini wouldn't you want to know who Erdnase was in his position? If I had been Houdini in 1902 reading the book I would looked for Erdnase and I think I would have had little trouble finding him then. I am wondering if Vernon fooled Houdini or Houdini fooled Vernon and the rest of us.
Cue the straight jacket or buy me one of these but don‘t throw me in the lake in chains, it‘s only an idea:
http://www.cafepress.com/happygrouch.20642944

Tommy

Houdini was not a great magician in the way of skill. He tried to be The King Of Cards for a while in Vaudeville and found that doing escapes got him publicity. And Houdini did most things for publicity.

Howard Thurston billed himself as the man who fooled Herrmann and he did that with the rising cards.

Herrmann was the well known Name of the day and Herrmann offered to buy the Rising card trick from Thurston. So he used that for publicity and billed himself in vaudeville as The Man who fooled Herrmann.

Vernon did this to because he showed a card effect to Houdini and he was fooled. Houdini wasn't a guy that would easily admit to being fooled but Vernon fooled him. Hardeen booked acts and was booking Vernon for a while when Vernon was doing a Chinese magic act with a Chinese mask his wife made him.

According to what some people have told me. Houdini started with a magic act and his knowledge of working magic was very basic. Then he did escapes and when he wanted to get back into magic to do his full evening show his basic knowledge got in his way. He was buying and having all sorts of things built for him because he needed the material.

There is also a Houdini Pass named after him to. And according to the Vernon chronicles Houdini could not do a pass.

"According to the passport of one young man playing here he is not allowed to play cards, for he has the reputation of being a "crooked card player." I have seen his card work and he does some nice card-sharping tricks, though I have witnessed better; but for nerve, he's a champion, and that I admire."

Houdini

Russian Notes

I think Houdini would have been intersted in Erdnase.

Also I recall seeing a documentry about Houdini a long time ago and how how he amazed people on the streets of Paris with card tricks, card through the window I think was one and card on the cieling was another but I am not sure as it was some years ago.
Glen, what was this Houdini pass and who gave him credit if he could not do one. I do not understand. Is it an Houdini Pass or a Pass just called Houdini.

Tommy

Houdini did not have that much schooling. So after he started to become famous he paid people to write books for him. Thurston also did this and so did Blackstone. Blackstone was one of the few doing the big show that could do close up magic and was good with cards.

But Houdini wanted to be well known in every country he considered taking his escape show. So he got an airplane and because someone already flew in America and was the first - (Wright brothers).

He packed it up and went to the land of the kangaroo. This was all for publicity. It is interesting that I have read that he won an award for being the first flight down their by the Australian Aviation Association. When I read this I thought that this was very funny. They have an Aviation Association but no one has a plane until Houdini got one and took it down there. I don't think the award or the association ever existed. Or perhaps Houdini gave them their first plane.

It was all about publicity - The same thing for his ghost hunting and spirit act that he added to his show.

Houdini may have written the "right way to do wrong" and this was to have a book with his name on it to sell at his show. But decided that the exposing card shark magician wasn't big enough for him. And did not draw enough attention from the newspaper reporters. So he went after the spirit guys and exposed them in the newspaper.

Jack Gwynne was part of the group (Employed by Houdini) that went into town a week or to before Houdini. Then he would check out the spirit people and see how they were doing the tricks. Then Houdini would expose them from the stage.

I was all about publicity.

Houdini wanted people to think that he was the greatest magician of his age. So he paid Walter B Gibson to write books for him so he could sell them at the theater he was playing. This included not just the show book that others sold. But quality hard back books that made people think that he was the best of the best of magic. Because it looks like he authored books on magic. This also covered his lack of school education - that was a real problem for him.

He purchased the Elliot notes and did not understand them. So at the time the book was published Elliot's Last Legacy was a very much talked about book by some of the other pro magicians that were around back then. But in regards of Houdini coming up with card moves. I don’t suggest you believe what you read!

Most of my Houdini info I got - at the risk of others calling me a name dropper - was from Jack and Anne Gwynne. I used to shovel their walk in the winter time. And they had lots of stories!

There are a number of moves in The Expert at The Card Table that were not originated by Erdnase. He is very specific in the book when claiming originality for a move. When he doesn't claim it as his own, he just notes the move without giving credit.

As far as Houdini being a card man... I have film footage of Houdini performing card flourishes, fans, arm spreads, color changes and card productions. Since this is before the advent of sound motion pictures, he obviously didn't do any other sort of card effects. What he did on the footage that I have is VERY well done. There is some pretty advanced technical stuff for the time, and I have no hesitation in believing that Houdini had a good working knowledge of Magic with playing cards.

As to the question of why he didn't create other sleights, beyond the colour change in question... perhaps he did, but because of the popularity of the Erdnase book, this is the one sleight of Houdini's that we've discovered. The Pass mentioned and credited to him is also known to scholars, although not widely used. And why didn't he put his name to his card sleights? Well, he did, in editing Elliott's Last Legacy. (By the way, there is more to THAT story than Houdini just buying the manuscript from the estate of Elliott).

He found that Card magicians were a dime a dozen in Vaudeville, and he wanted to seperate himself from everyone else as a performer. He found that the Escapes were his ticket to fame and fortune, and he set himself up as a very strange, almost super-human creature who could do the absolutely impossible things he did. Card tricks no longer were his focus.

In the magic magazine that he edited he did include a number of effects that he claimed to have originated.

- entity

Also, on the of-repeated notion that Houdini's lack of formal education meant that he was incapable of writing intelligently... If you read any of Houdini personal correspondance with friends, family or other performers, especially later in his life, you'll find that he writes extremely well. His letters are full of wit and charm, are literate and intelligent, and in my opinion, make many of the rest of us look like simpletons in the way that we share our thoughts.

Houdini was not stupid, he was just not overburdened by formal education. He was extremely well-read, especially within the realms of Magic and the Occult, but also on many other subjects, such as mechanics, medicine (his brother was a Doctor) and photography.

- entity

I have Houdini Film footage to of him doing card moves. Hardly a king of cards like Tommy Downs was the King Of Koins.

King of Cards is subjective, I suppose, and purely advertising hyperbole. I'm not saying that Houdini was the best card man who lived at that time. I'm saying he was obviously someone who had studied and practised what was available to him at the time. His colour change (no one else seems to claim credit for it) alone should earn him some respect as a card man. It is practical, invisible and mystifying, when performed properly. Erdnase thought highly enough of it to include it in his book.

Perhaps that is deserving of at least a little of our respect.

- entity

"Mediocre." is a little unfair of Vernon all the same.


http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/3487/cardflip1.mpg
http://www.geocities.com/Broadway/Stage/......rds2.gif

Tommy

TN Downs was a great sleight of hand magician and made a living doing it. He also is recorded to have session with people like Vernon and the New York Inner circle. This is written up in the Vernon Chronicles and in the Magic with Faucett Ross that has a chapter about TN Downs.

I am not knocking Houdini. But the only history recordings of Houdini being a great sleight of hand magician are mostly in what HE published about himself. And there is that film footage of him doing some stage card moves of the day.

My point is Downs made a living doing that. Houdini did not. On an audio tape of Joe Dunninger he said something like - that Houdini Believed that he was better than all the magicians. He would brag about being able to Back P**m 20 cards. And you could see them sticking out.

People here in the Café can believe whatever they want to about Houdini and his ability with cards. Personally and this is just my own opinion. I do not think that he came up with any card moves.

But he was great at writing entertainment propaganda about himself. And he became a magic icon because of his ability to get great publicity in his day!

Scarne writes about Houdini in his book the odds against me. Scarne was also great at getting publicity for his work with cards - and Scarne Had the skill and the chops.

Glenn:

Just out of curiosity, since you don't think Houdini invented the colour change that most people now credit to him, who do you think created it? I'd be interested to hear your theory.

- entity

Hi entity I am not trying to have an argument about Houdini with you but to answer your question - I do not think Houdini invented it but gave himself credit when he wrote or had that book written. I think the Houdini Pass is in there to or perhaps another book.

Houdini could do some card moves but he was hardly a card man of Leipzig, Elliot or Downs class. But my information and study of Houdini (and I am no expert) was that that is what he wanted the audience to think he did hard hitting sleight of hand when they went to his show.

As to who invented the moves - I have no idea. It may be lost in time.

Erdnase was published in about 1902. The Elliot Last Legacy came later after Houdini was performing and well known in magic. That to me doesn’t justify Houdini's claim right there!

Dr Elliot also performed as Bosco in the Leroy Talma and Bosco show.

Erdnase was published around the time in his career when Houdini was presenting himself as The King of Cards (or at least, near the end of that time in his career). This COULD give credence to the notion that the sleight was his.

Not trying to argue either. I truly was interested in your thoughts as to who the culprit might be, if not Houdini. Sorry to hear that you have no idea. Has anyone esle ever claimed to have invented this sleight?

- entity

I don't think it was Houdini's. And no one really can give us the information that we want on Erdnase. All we can do is take a guess as to who Erdnase was.

As far as the publishing of the move. Erdnase got it in print first at a time that Houdini was trying to break into show business with a card act no one knows if it was ever booked. This suggests to me that Houdini read Erdnase as he was noted as to have read the Tarbell Course by Tarbell.