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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts 
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On 2005-04-12 18:10, JimMaloney wrote: True 
I do wonder how much reading Malini did, though. He wasn't a very educated man. Most of his magic was self-taught. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27314 Posts
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Was this called the "side slip" in older writings?
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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On 2005-04-12 19:07, Jonathan Townsend wrote: From "Malini and His Magic" Charlie Miller: Max, how is it you can always fool people with these sleights of yours? Max Malini: Well, you don't do it when they are watching. CM: What do you mean? MM: Well, take this Side Slip I do...." Apparently, Malini refered to it as a Side Slip. |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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Vernon referred to it as the side slip in the Leipzig book.
As far as older writings go, in "The Art of Magic", there's no specific name given to it, though references in the text just call it "the slip" or "the slide". Stanyon also did not give it a specific name, but merely devoted a single paragraph to the description of it in in May 1909 issue of his "Magic". This was in the context of "The 'Leipzig' Card Force and Location". Hilliard's "Greater Magic" refers to it as the "Side Steal". (This is possibly the next major description of the sleight after the two listed above. Hilliard refers to the sleight being described in "many books since the 'Art of Magic'", though I'm not aware of what those books are.) -Jim
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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Well, considering that Hilliard actually wrote "The Art of Magic" and not Downs....could it be his move? Or could he be the one responsible for not crediting it?
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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On 2005-04-12 20:56, irishguy wrote: No, it's certainly not his. In "The Art of Magic", he writes that it is Downs' creation. However, like I mentioned, there were items in "The Art of Magic" that were Leipzig's -- some credited, some not, but all without his permission. Also, in "Greater Magic" he says that it was introduced into magic by Downs, Leipzig, and Harry Stork. Note that he says it was "introduced", not "created by". I'm not certain where the Harry Stork reference comes from, as that's the only mention I've seen of it. Long story short -- it's very unlikely that it's Hilliard's creation. But, without any further evidence, I'm not sure whether it can really be said who the exact originator was, though Leipzig and Downs are the two top contenders. -Jim
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27314 Posts
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What do we know about Harry Stork, our bachelor number three?
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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On 2005-04-14 11:48, Jonathan Townsend wrote: He is credited with the "retention pass". Other than that, I know nothing. |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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On 2005-04-14 13:28, irishguy wrote: Sort of. Wesley James states over at lybrary.com's Magic Lineage Project, "This technique, while attributed to Harry Stork, because his is the first known published description, was not claimed by Mr. Stork and probably dates back further." There are also other items attributed to him: an false overhand shuffle in Hilliard's Lost Notebooks and a card fountain in Tarbell 2. He seems to have died in 1907. -Jim
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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On 2005-04-14 13:46, JimMaloney wrote: I knew that it was attributed to him and probably dated back earlier, but I didn't know that Stork himself denied ownership. Interesting. Quote:
He seems to have died in 1907. Houdini's magazine had an issue with an obituary and probably more information. I don't have it, so I couldn't say. It was "Conjurers' Monthly" Volume 1, #8. April 15, 1907. |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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On 2005-04-14 14:43, irishguy wrote: Well, not necessarily that he denied it, rather that he never made a claim to its creation. I need to check exactly what's listed in "The Art of Magic", though. That's the one problem with doing this stuff from work -- I don't have my books handy to check references.
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Houdini's magazine had an issue with an obituary and probably more information. I don't have it, so I couldn't say. It was "Conjurers' Monthly" Volume 1, #8. April 15, 1907. That's basically where I got my info from, but like you, I don't have the issue. Also, I'm surprised that I didn't pick up on the connection earlier, but check out this snippet from Leipzig's autobiography: I was greatly excited when I heard that a Professor Stork, a magician who had come to Detroit recently and had opened a magical depot, would give a performance at a local hall. Of course, I made it my business to see his show which was very good, the one trick that was outstanding to me, was that in which he had three men in the front row, draw cards from a deck. The cards were returned to the deck and one of these men was asked to hold the cards in his hands. At that moment a telegraph boy came running into the hall shouting: "A telegram for Professor Stork." The professor opened the telegram and found the three cards that had been drawn by the three spectators and an examination of the pack proved that those three cards were missing from it. The trick impressed me greatly and as I understood the modus operandi I decided to do it at my next performance. I wouldn't be surprised if Harry Stork went by "Professor Stork". If that is the case, then the fact that Stork was in Detroit at the time Leipzig was developing most of his material (this event was circa 1892) is significant, in that they could have swapped material. While this doesn't give us any more information on who created the side steal, it does perhaps provide some info on how they were both using it prior to "The Art of Magic". (Although that still wouldn't explain how Downs caught wind of it, if he wasn't the original creator.) -Jim
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27314 Posts
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Funny story about that, in the next paragraph of his autobiography he claims that things went poorly when he did this copied trick. Guilt perhaps? It was an era of cutthroat copyism and ego issues. I suspect it came into use vai mr Stork, who got it elsehwere.
Page 145 figure 18 suggests Downs was claiming significant credit for something that looks like the sidesteal.
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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On 2005-04-14 15:51, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Well, Leipzig was only 19 at the time and had had little contact with other magicians. I don't think he knew any better. Besides, it was his cousin that messed things up, not Leipzig. Quote:
Page 145 figure 18 suggests Downs was claiming significant credit for something that looks like the sidesteal. Yes, it does. But also remember that Leipzig was less than happy when he found out about some of the material published in The Art of Magic. While I don't know what material specifically he objected to (you can assume the ones that specifically had his name attached to them are among objectionable material), it's not too far fetched to think that the side steal may have been one of them. It's also interesting to note that when Hilliard talked about the side steal later on in "Greater Magic", he didn't make the same large claim of credit for Downs, but rather gave a more...diplomatic credit, saying something along the lines of it being "introduced" to the magic world by Downs, Leipzig and Stork. Does anyone know what other books mentioned the side steal between the publication of "The Art of Magic" and "Greater Magic"? -Jim
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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In Arthur Buckley's "Card Control" he has a single card shift that he says he had been doing since 1912. The main difference between it and the slips/steals we have been discussing is that the point is to move the card to the bottom, not the top.
Buckley didn't come to America until 1918, 6 years after the date he claims for the creation of the move. I realize that "The Art of Magic" was initially published in 1909, three years before Buckley created his move, but I don't know if Buckley would have had acess to this book in Australia. Couldn't that lend credence to the idea of this move being discovered independently by numerous magicians? |
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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It's possible that the Buckley item was independantly created. However, even if he didn't have access to "The Art of Magic" prior to 1912, I should note that Leipzig had toured Australia several times between 1908 and 1912. So, he wasn't completely isolated "down under".
-Jim
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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On 2005-04-14 19:58, JimMaloney wrote: OK... The copy of Buckley that I have gives the dates listed above. Yet, "Revolutionary Card Technique" states that Buckley had been using that move since 1908. I'm now confused over the true date of Buckley using his version. |
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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On 2005-04-17 20:59, magiciandex wrote: History is interesting
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JimMaloney Inner circle 1184 Posts
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On 2005-04-14 19:58, JimMaloney wrote: More data has come in since this post, and it seems as if Leipzig first appeared in Australia in March of 1911. You've cited two dates for Buckley's move, and depending on which one we go by, it could be either an independent invention, or a variation on Leipzig's. I'd tend to go by the 1912 date, considering it was Buckley himself that said that. That makes it more likely that he had seen Leipzig do the side steal, though it's certainly possible that he never actually saw Leipzig do it. However, Buckley was living in Sydney, which was the first stop on Leipzig's tour. We can't discount that Buckley saw Leipzig, nor can we discount that he read a copy of The Art of Magic in that period. Just more to think about... -Jim
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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It is true that Buckley may have seen Leipzig perform, but unless they spoke in person and shared technique, I don't know if you could say that Buckley saw Leipzig's side steal. He may have seen an interesting routine and attempted to re-create it, thereby independently creating the move.
But at the end of the day, other than owning the one book, I don't really know much about Buckley. I don't know what his influences were or weren't. Is there much information about Buckley? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27314 Posts
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On 2005-05-11 20:31, irishguy wrote:...could say that Buckley saw Leipzig's side steal. He may have seen an interesting routine and attempted to re-create it, thereby independently creating the move... We call that copying when being polite, taking may be more accurate.
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Posted: Apr 12, 2005 10:29 pm 