I know I'm probably making a big deal out of nothing, but I see now Penguin marked to Blue Twilight Angel Refills up to $10.00 regular price before discounts.

I See Murphy's has the red ones now at $10.00

I did an internet search and found about a dozen companies that advertise Twilight angel refills for $5.00 regular price. As I call and contact each one, they say they are now $10.00 regular price.

I'm glad I got my 10 packs of refills when I did for $5.00 each minus discounts.

I decided I will not do this effect any more once I run out.

This is a forum of opinions, and this will be my way to express what I think you did(you know who you are, but I don't)is WRONG. To DOUBLE the price just because, is wrong. I know about supply and demand.
I just talked to another company today and he said I can get all the blue I want at $5.00

Besides, if everyone else is doing this effect, then I don't want to copy others.
I find this plays well one on one. In a group standing around in a crowded noisy room(which is the majority of my close up gigs) this does not play as well.
So my 50 angels will probably last me a long time.
And then there will be one less person out there doing this effect.

ACE

Wow, I'm sorry to hear this. I was going to buy 10 sets of the blue backers from Penguin at $5 a set. Not now. 50 cents a card was steep, a buck a card is more than steep. Then again, I don't really understand why you can't buy a deck of angel cards for $5 or even $10. Whatever. And doubling the price on the existing blue cards...

I bought 10 sets of 5 refills so I am set for a bit but I still have a back-up plan for when I need more (in the event nobody is carrying them, etc.). It's pretty simple and I've gone through the process before for another set of gimmicked cards I wanted made. Here it is, blinding in its simplicity:
I fail to see why people don't simply get custom cards made.

This goes both for Twighlight Angels as well as Weirdling (in terms of business cards), etc.

I must be missing something but even at an ourageous price point ($20/deck), the price is 38 cents per card. Usually it's buy 2, get 1 free, which reduces this price to less thant 26 cents per card.

Usually the biggest hurdle is getting an acceptable image, except that we all have them already (front AND back, so you don't even have to try to go through USPCC if you don't want to).

I honestly don't know if that will help but I hope it does. Plus it addresses Ace's issue about raising prices when demand goes up. Although it does beg the question about how he feels about gas prices.

Don't even get me started on the gas prices,

Thanks for that advice on custom cards, I was wondering about that.

ACE

Posted: Mar 25, 2009 12:05am
Gas prices and Twilight Angel refills are apples and oranges.

I feel like I asked so much about the red ones, I created a demand and they doubled the price. I think it is just greed on the part of the ones that doubled the price.
So it is my fault, blame me. The way to combat this is: If no one buys them, then eventually they might sell them cheaper or on clearance to get rid of them.

I am looking into finding a custom card company to make these. If I do, and they can make them in decks with all 52 different cards, that will be better and supply a need the dealers cannot. So that is my justification. When I work a room, I have to repeat the effect 20 or 30 times for different people. This will keep the ones that follow me around from seeing I always have the 2H. And I always have someone ask me to do it again for their special friend. At this point it cannot be done or they will see it is the same card. This is a MAJOR drawback to doing this in my pro show. If I do get these and get a surplus, I will happily pass on the savings with no profit to me, privately to any friends. I think this is just greed on the part of the maker of these. So far I found a company that can make custom cards at about $4 a deck.

I have no idea if I am actually going to do this, it is just my thoughts right now because I am upset.

ACE

[quote]On 2009-03-25 00:05, Acecardician wrote:
I am looking into finding a custom card company to make these.
/quote]

I would check with the True Astonishment guys first before making your own Twilight Angels. Just a suggestion...
As for myself, I just rewatched Wayne's performance of Twilight Angels and decided that I will in fact buy a refill pack of the Angel cards, or two. I will not buy the 10 packs as I had planned on and certainly not perform it as often as I had originally intended. Too bad as it a great effect.

My bet is that Twilight Angel refills will drop in price in 6 months or so. Once the increase in demand is worked out and other sources start to print more the price will come down to something more acceptable. Our government may no longer believe in the free market place but I still do.

I'm over it, and moved on, lol.

ACE

Quick follow-up because I got a few PMs.

First off, most of you are correct, minimum orders have been upped to 10 decks (admagic.com). The time I ordered cards, from a company that no longer exists I guess, they ran a special of order 2 decks of cards, get one free. I assume this is why they are no longer in business.

Doing a quick survey of the internet, assuming I eliminate all companies requiring 100 decks, assuming I eliminate all "Contact for pricing companies", assuming I assume we want to match Bicycle card finishes (i.e., no super cheap, super thick lumps of cardboard), there weren't a lot of options after 10 minutes of looking (yes, I know, not a long time but I'm trying here).

Best deal I found after 10 minutes of searching:
18 decks for $220-240 (this includes a $80 Prepress charge, shipping included). This equates to around $13 for a deck of 54 cards, or somewhere around a quarter a card.

Other sites had lower minimums (such as admagic.com or make-a-deck.com) but higher price points as well as lower discounts for volume, example:

Pricing And Payment Methods
Quantity
Per Deck
S&H

1 Custom deck $49.99 $3.99
2 duplicate decks @ $46.99 ea. $3.99
3 duplicate decks @ $43.99 ea. $3.99
4-11 duplicate decks @ $39.99 ea. $6.99
12-17 duplicate decks @ $29.99 ea. $9.99
18-35 duplicate decks @ $23.99 ea. $12.99
36-53 duplicate decks @ $21.99 ea. $16.99
54-71 duplicate deck @ $19.99 ea. $21.99
72-89 duplicate decks @ $17.99 ea. $27.99
90-107 duplicate decks @ $15.99 ea. $29.99
108-144 duplicate decks @ $13.99 ea. $29.99


As you can see, huge variations (for full reference, I put the full information from the 18 deck example at the end of this post). Since there are such big variations, I would assume we can find a really good price point given enough time, but I have been wrong before.

My final analysis is:
too expensive to do unless a better supplier is found, unless somebody wants to buy a bunch and supply them at $5.00/10 (roughly 100% mark-up but doesn't count labor) or unless a group of people want to go in.

I am a bit disappointed in myself because it was much easier when I went through this before, so I didn't bother checking before I posted.

Lem

18 deck price points:
Quick Estimate for 18 decks deck features $ per deck $ total
Plastic-Coated Cards Poker-size: $0.00 $0.00
Individual Faces: $0.95 $17.10
Your Custom Back: $7.75 $139.50
TOTAL: $8.70 $156.60
PrePress Charge: $80.00
2 proof changes allowed, additional proofs $25 each.
Final Amount.: $236.60
Delivery: Continental Ground: FREE
Express Service available, call for rates

Price Breaks for Your Specifics
# of decks $ per deck $ total
18 $8 70 $156 60
50 $7 35 $367 50
100 $5 40 $540 00
300 $5 30 $1'590 00
500 $5 20 $2'600 00
800 $5 15 $4'120 00
Call for orders greater than 1'000 decks.

At 100 decks, it's around a dime per card, just fyi.

Posted: Mar 25, 2009 8:14pm
Thales may be right. I've kept this option in my back pocket because USPCC is going to reduce the number of magician related products (based on the rumor mill, at least), so I wanted to make sure to have uninterrupted access to common gaffs. I hadn't realized how expensive everything has gotten.

Personally, outside of VHS tapes, I don't see a ton of price drops, esp. for something like this. At least in things I want, lol.

I may be wrong as well. After thinking about it for a bit it could be that if the cost for refiles is too high then the effect will never take off and there will never be enough demand to create the needed competition to lower the price point.

But this does remind me of an idea I have had for the last few years. Is there a working business model were someone only sells refills for effects and not the method? Twilight Angel Refills is a perfect example of a product that would be sold by this imaginary Magic Refill Company I have been thinking of. Other potential products would be nicely made Meruring rings that look like real wedding bands and not bands cut from an aluminum pipe, sheet of mylar with yellow spot and yellow ball for Jerry Andrus' Mylar Mystery, twisted pens for Lubor's Lens, Vanishink gimmicks, or any effect that requires you to go out and buy things and do some arts and crafts stuff. I can not tell you how many times have driven around from store to store looking for a certain sized rubber band, type of ChapStick, etc. Think about all the effects that need you to cut up a new card box. Wouldn't it be great to have someplace where you could just order a few empty card boxes or better yet a card box already gimmicked up as needed for the effect.
Plus it could all be done via EBay and out of the basement. What do you guys think of that idea?

An interesting idea. However, would this imaginary company actually be allowed to sell these refills? Wouldn't the people who initially created the gimmick object if someone printed up 1000 decks of their customer gimmicked card and started selling it on? Sounds like a knock-off to me.

Rob

I am surprised that no one has asked if it is OK to print up the cards. I know Paul has not been contacted and I believe the artwork is his. Paul is having more Twilight Angel Cards printed. Murphy's does offer Twilight Angel refills so they are available for dealers. But I don't think it is appropriate to print cards without Paul's approval.

Tim

Tim has a good point. However, let's be frank here, I'm not sure what the ethical implications are but I will share what I thought about (keep in mind, I bought 50 refills from TAP):

1.) It is constantly said that you buy the "secret". You don't buy the gaffs. People make their own gaffs all the time (double-sided cards, mis-indexed cards, R/S decks, etc.).

2.) People are not performing this effect because the gaffs are not available. Keep in mind the DVD set showing the effect is brand new. If a brand new effect is out but the gaffs are not available, is that an ethical problem for the people who released the DVD (I think so, if they don't think people should be able to make their own) or the person who bought the DVD in good faith AND would buy the gaffs if they were available.

3.) Monopoly issues. I see no reason why people should be unable to perform this effect if the gaffs are not commercially available.

Honestly, it would be different if you were buying these to sell at a profit (would it?), but to do the effect yourself, from a DVD you bought, seems the exact definition of fair use.

So, my answer to Tim is that I think this is fair use, based on ownership of the DVD. If the DVD came out 20 years ago, then it wouldn't be such a big deal but to release a DVD without a stock of blue cards? Seems like it would be fair to get them made for your own use to me.

Lem

PS- Somebody PMed me a good point: implied performance rights. Purchasing of a magic DVD set comes with implied (or outright) performance rights to the content within. Part of these performance rights would be preparation of any elements within the performance. The effect was never prefaced with anything limiting the source of the cards. I don't know for sure, but, again, this sounds like a simple fair use issue to me.

Posted: Mar 26, 2009 3:53pm
Ok, based on another PM, and this is my last comment on this topic from PM questions/statements, so no more PMs on this, ok, we can discuss it here or in a public thread somewhere else, here was the point made:

Both color gaffs are now available (for double the price they were before).

I think my general reasoning still holds. It's obvious that, commerically, you can produce the cards for much less than $1 each. You have the implied performance rights, there is nothing, ANYWHERE, requiring you to purchase TA gimmicks from "Authorized dealers".

Plus, in my personal opinion, it would be in bad taste to release an effect on DVD, without any gimmicks (in red), then suddenly start charging 2X as much for the gimmicks. I'm not saying anybody did this, merely that it would be more questionable than making personal gaffs for yourself to perform an effect on a DVD you own.

Of course, it occurs to me that I could made an argument against it too, I just have trouble saying "You must buy this gimmick from this person to do the effect on the DVD you bought".

I don't think it would be appropriate to make a business out of selling other peoples creations, thinking that there is an ethical loophole that you aren't selling the instructions.

Perhaps thinking about it from the creators point of view might help put some perspective on it.

There's a difference between making your own gaffs and making them and selling them.

My plate is pretty full if I were to start such a company I would not sell any refills without getting permission from the creators of the effects, and I would hope that would be the case with anyone else that might take up that company idea. I think if you were to give credit to the creators of the effects and provide links to their web site or the site that sell the effects then it might actually help generate more sales of their effects. Plus many people like effects but are too lazy or busy to but the time into buying all the needed items or making the gaffs.

Just for the record, I happen to agree, to a point. I think you could be taking money out of creators hands, and that is something I almost never approve of. Can I come up with examples where I, personally, might think it was ok? Sure, but no examples in real life, merely theoretical ones.

What's their incentive to give you permission? I think your hit rate would be almost zero on this, since any creator would much rather make the profit from selling refills rather than you making it.

Exactly. Is that bad if Paul doesn't give permission. Why should he not profit from HIS creation. Do you think it's OK to start making cards for Simon Aronson's Sideswiped, Skinner 3 card Monte, Color Fusion, etc. I don't think so especially since refills are available from the creator/producer. I agree there can be loopholes but do not think ethically it is appropriate. Quite honestly I think even if you are making something just for your own use you should contact the inventor but quite obviously especially if you are selling them as that certainly brings up ethical and possibly legal issues. It's just not right. But that's just my two cents.

Tim

You make excellent points, Tim, like I said, I can make arguments both ways. However, as I said before, I just have trouble saying "You must buy this gimmick from this person to do the effect on the DVD you bought".

The reason is illustrated perfectly by the TA Refill issue. No red backed gaffs, then, when they are available, suddenly they have doubled in price. In this instance, you have people who are rendered unable to perform an effect they bought the secret and performance rights too. Is that right? Of course it isn't. They should be able to do what they need to do to do the effect.

Now, to expand this example, is it fair to worry that red refills will be limited in the future? Sure, of course it is, it's already happened once. Is it fair to worry that price increases (unrelated to costs of materials) may make the trick too expensive to perform? Sure, of course it is, people have said that very thing in this thread.

To me, that makes this example cut and dry. But that is just my two cents. Thanks for sharing!

Lem

Many creator do not sell refills for their effects or the do not sell the gaffs and only give you instructions on how to make them. Others, like Jay Sankey, come up with great effects but do not always create the best quality gaffs (e.g. Mercuring). If the creators of these tricks allowed their gaffs to be made or allowed high quality copies of their gaffs to be sold then it could only lead to more people doing their effects and in the end more sales. Plus items like empty card boxes can be used for the gaffs in many effects so no creator could really complain about those types of sales. And who has a patent on melted twisted pens for instance?

I apologize if this has already addressed as I have not perused through 36 threads...does anyone's DVD make aweful sounds as part of the DVD with Tubular? Thanks.