Well, I've heard it said that when one door closes, another opens...

Anyone who has looked at my products may realize that I often do a lot of color layering. This amounts to laying down one color, letting it dry, masking what I wish to remain, and laying down a second color. This process is sometimes repeated several times in order to get some of the elaborate patterns that some of these pieces have.

Anyway, one of the things that will make you want to pull your hair out is when, after several layers involving much time, something goes wrong. Some of these problems I have been able to solve through a variety of means. Masking tape pulling up a layer of paint was partially solved by only using the "delicate surface" blue painter's tape (not the regular blue painter's tape). It is a lot more expensive, but it seems to contribute much to the solution.

It also helps a lot to allow longer periods of time for the paint layers to cure. This, of course really drags down the turn-around time on projects. As some of you may know, some brands of paint have a working "window" that is often not connected with simply being able to wait for the paint to dry sufficiently to avoid tape pulling it up. A typical "window" might read, "Re-coat within 4 hours, or after one week".

If it requires about 24 hours for a paint layer to dry enough to make the use of tape safe, then you are automatically forced into that "after one week" bracket. I'm sure you see the problem.

One solution that I found was to use Krylon paints that are labeled, "Dries in 12 minutes or less" and "Re-coat anytime".

First of all, don't be fooled by the 12 minute hype. That only applies to bugs that might choose to land on the surface. It is not sufficiently dried to do much of anything else with it. Several hours are still required in most climates (sometimes more in good ol' Alaba-VietNam, where I live).

Brand compatibility is another issue entirely, which will bring us to the main point of this thread (finally... snore...)I have been guilty of laying one brand over another at times, often with no problems, but every once in a while, with disastrous results (wrinkling, paint lifting, etc.). When this happens, it's best to leave the planet until that project cures. I have been able to repaint some of these goofs by sanding down to a previous layer and building back up, but sometimes that will leave a badly waffled finish, so paint stripper is the only option.

If you have ever used paint stripper, you know it would be easier to re-build the prop and start from scratch. So with that potential looming, I thought the best solution was to give all my money to one company and avoid such problems. Surely, their paints would be compatible with each other, or at the very least, there would be some indication on the can that they aren't. My brand of choice for all of the above reasons ended up being Krylon (re-coat anytime, etc.). I'm giving you the brand name, because this may or may not apply to other brands.

OK, so here we go with nothing but Krylon paints at the ready, a great attitude and a project that I am making for myself...

After the primer coats, and of course the various degrees of sanding that go with it, the first color I lay down is gold. It seems to be going great. I am forced, because of other things in life, to wait a few days before I can get back to this project.

Back to the project again, I mask an area for the next color, which will be flat black. I spray it and it looks great! I am happy and life is good!

I come back to this project a short time later to discover that I am now looking at a crackle finish, which I have been known to pay dearly for when I want it. Problem is, this time, I didn't.

I immediately grab the cans and start reading ALL the fine print, hoping to find an obvious slap in the face that says, "Michael, you are an idiot." For better or worse, I find nothing of the sort. But, I do find a phone number. I call it, and it goes directly to Krylon's "We Don't Give a ****" department.

I carefully explain the problem, without saying anything about being a magician. I have learned from past experience that giving that much information will get you flagged as a crackpot by folks in the "real" world. I tell her exactly what products I was using, and what I was applying it to (primed wood). I am sitting there with the cans in front of me.

The person on the phone is nice and very matter of fact... She says, "Oh, that's because you sprayed lacquer over enamel."

I immediately grab the cans again.

"Does it say lacquer or enamel on the cans?" I ask.

"Well, no. But, that's what it is."

Ok... can you sense my anger beginning to rise??? I got no further help from her.

Anyway... if you are looking for a cheap alternative to the expensive Crackle Finish paints, let's just say I found one that seems to work pretty darn good.

On the other hand, if anyone has a solution to this problem, I'd love to hear it. Is it possible to put a barrier coat in between these paints to prevent such a problem? Any help is appreciated!!

~michael

Another is to use a half and half coating of white glue and water. Lay that down. Let it dry a bit, then spray or brush over it. Crackly Crackle!

That does work (better for water-based paints), but maybe you misunderstood my question. I am looking for a solution to keep this from happening. Not knowing whether a paint is enamel or lacquer when the labelling is identical on both cans creates a world of frustration. I would like to avoid that. I was completely amazed that a company as supposedly reputable as Krylon would leave this issue unattended. Surely, other Krylon customers will eventually experience the same problems.

I am hoping there is a suitable barrier coat that I can lay down between potentially incompatible layers so that I don't have to find out there is a problem after I've sprayed down a coat.

~michael

I feel your pain.

It's annoying when a company doesn't make compatibility information clearly available to their purchasers. This probably sounds dumb, but instead of frustrating yourself looking for a clear barrier coat, it might be simpler to go back to the store and purchase a compatible paint for your top color. Since the top color cracked, you already know that the undercolor is enamel. So buy an enamel paint to redo the top color.

To ensure that you aren't wasting a trip, call the store ahead of time and ask a competent salesclerk which brands and catalog numbers they have of your desired color. Then look up the applicable MSDS on the manufacturer's websites to find out what solvents they contain.

You can tell if the paint is enamel or lacquer by reading the MSDS. Enamels contain mineral spirits, while lacquers contain methyl ethyl ketone and/or methyl isobutyl ketone.

Hi Michael:

Thanks for all the information. I used to use Krylon exclusively, but not as much anymore because about the only place I can get them anymore is at Walmart, and they're selection is undependable. Some days they have everything. Some days, nothing.

I agree that Krylon is easy to work with - that window is much friendlier than Painters Touch, for instance. It seems to me that Krylon has several versions of their gold, and I've had problems with it. They have the standard gold that comes in the white can with the different colors spheres on it. I assume all those paints are enamel. They also have a gold that comes in a thinner can that supposedly has gold flakes in it (or something like that).

I have since gone to Painters Touch because their selection of colors is better. Plus, I think their gold is enamel instead of lacquer. I still think Krylon's Semi-black is unbeatable, so I use that.

I know I'm not helping with your question, but thought I would share my experiences. I am going to try your tip with the special masking tape - I've seen it, but didn't really think anything of it. I'm also going to check the cans I have to see if they list the ingredients as Craig mentioned.

Ron

I have several brands of gold spray paint in my cabinet. Some are older and unusable, but they are all lacquer. I never realized this until you told of you experience.

Maybe lacquer is the only way that metallic gold comes.

http://alsacorp.com/products/killercans/......info.htm

Their paint is superduper expensive.. but anything can be sprayed on anything.. it's all auto laquer.. it smells to high heaven.. but you can get colors and effects you simply CANT get with any other paint. I doubt the Chrome will ever look like mirror finish over wood... but the paints do what they say they'll do on the proper surface..

The base coat on this problem child was the Gold, therefore by all chemical logic, enamel. The top coat was Ultra Flat Black. The kicker is, they both came in identical cans (Krylon with the 5 color balls).

Both indicate to clean the nozzle, use lacquer thinner. Other than that, I find no other indication of vehicle.

I had been using a metaalic bright gold sold by Ace. Results have been very good, but the local store was out and since I was going with all Krylon to avoid the problems of wrinkling, lifting, etc., I thought their gold would surely be compatible with their other paints... especially because they all came in identical cans. I even went so far as to avoid Krylon products with different can labelling. Oh, well...

Makeupguy, I checked that link when you put it on another thread. Thanks for that. It looks like a fantastic product, but I'd hate to pass more cost on to my customers. Maybe on my own projects...

Fortunately, this recent problem was on something that I was making for myself. You hate to goof up something promised to someone else, ya know??

Ok, what I did is take it all back to bare wood. Fortunately, it was only one side of a box that got screwed up, but there are 5 other sides waiting on me to be nicer to them. I have primed and added the base coat of gold (same product). I will next try to be sure I have an enamel paint for the next coat. (Thanks, Craig! The answer was too obvious.)

Once I get a coat on, I will re-post with results.

Ron, I will try Painter's Touch very soon to check results. thanks!

Here are 2 examples of the color layering that I do, so you can see how irritating it is when a screw-up happens after several colors have been applied.

Example # 1 & # 2.

Next, I will be trying to figure out why I can top coat ANYTHING with clear lacquer without problems. That has always been a mystery. Not sure why, but it works.

~michael

Michael;
We have touched on this in another thread or two. As long as you are relying upon outside sources for "paints", you will likely run across incompatibility problems.

You can eliminate this problem by sticking with lacquers and mixing/spraying your own. Small scale spraying can be done with various sizes of airbrushes. I prefer double action airbrushes for their control of the mix of air and lacquer. By having an assortment of airbrushes in your shop, you may set them up for different spray pattern diameters. All may be on the same manifold from a single air compressor. You will require a good moisture trap and I suggest filtering all lacquers being put in to the color cup. You will be surprised at how much coverage you can get with only a few drops of lacquer. By using a fog coat before the final coat, you can eliminate bleeding under tape and improve adhesion. Sign painters' lacquers are more flexible than auto lacquers.

Colors may be mixed as needed or as I often like to do mixed on the object being sprayed. A final clear coat may be used at the end of the paint job.

When selecting an airbrush, make certain that it can handle lacquers. Some airbrushes have rubber "O" rings around the needles and the lacquer thinner attacks this rubber. Teflon seals are much more user friendly. Good airbrushes do not come cheap. Buy a brand name. No Harbor Freight items here.

Using lacquers presents several health issues. You need a good exhaust system to remove air borne particles to prevent breathing them. Even so, I suggest wearing a good painters filter mask (not the cheap disposable ones).

Jim

Hi Jim,

I have a Paasche airbrush, but it is a single action. I may break it out and test the waters with it. I use to use it on model railroads for laying in base coats on models when I did not want anything but a very thin coat of paint, so as not to cover up details.

Thanks for the info. It may be a slow process for me, as it will be one more set-up to factor into my tiny workspace, but I will eventually get around to experimenting here.

~michael

Time I had that happen to my finishes... (Same situation BTW- Different colors of the same brand of paint) while it was still wet, I was actually able to take a pallet knife and scrape it all off. It just scraped off in gooey sheets.

Leapinglizards,

I have done that with wrinkled paint in the past, but by the time I discovered what happened, the paint was essentially dry. I suppose because the base coat had cured for a few days, it didn't react as fast as crackle paints usually do. As I said, right after I sprayed it, it looked fine. Who would have guessed that watching paint dry would have been a better choice for me that day? Ha-ha!!

~michael

I stick with laquer paints mostly unless I need an odd color. I have about ten different spray guns with the different colors in them. And yes I use harbor freight air guns as they seem to work, at least for me, better than the expensive guns. If I have to use an odd paint I always test the paints on scrap before using them on the projects. Learned this, like you, the hard way. The only problem with laquer is using tape for masking. You can't waist time there. Get the tape on, spray it and get the tape off. If not the laquer will attack adhesive on tape and leave a gummy residue. Sometimes you can use mineral spirits to remove this but don't rub to hard.
Ray

Ray;
The HF spray guns will work OK; but their much smaller airbrushes are pretty "iffy". I mostly use frisket for masking - cut with a frisket hot knife (like a woodburning tool with a long thin point). Tape is not bad with airbrushes due to the limited amount of lacquer that is actually applied. This small amount of lacquer does not wet the tape to the point that the thinner dissolves the tape adhesive. As mentioned above, fog coating before spraying the final coat helps with any such problems.
Jim

Ray, Thank you for your thoughts. I most often will pull the tape immediately after getting the color coverage I need. I have learned that some paints love to cure across the tape line, and don't seem to play by the rules concerning which side should stay down and which side comes away with the tape. If I pull it as soon as I know it won't run, I get a cleaner line.

~michael

I have always used Micro Mask for the finest lines and color separations. Like you, Michael, one of the many advantages of a life "wasted" with model railroading...

Anyone would would desire to build magic should be required to read a good book on weathering and detail techniques as taught by the guys who excell at model railroading. That's some of the finest work you will ever see anywhere!!

~michael

"I call it, and it goes directly to Krylon's 'We Don't Give a ****' department."

Michael,

That's so funny. Too many companies have that department when you call them.

I like the crackle paint sometimes, so thanks for the tip...

Steven

Hello,
Interesting stuff. As far as masking tape goes, about it spoiling the job by ruining the paint, if you can't get the blue low tack one, or if the low tack is too sticky, or any other for that matter...
What I do is pull off the required length, then hold it between my fore finger and thumb (thumb on the sticky side) and squeeze as I run my hand downwards along the tape. The friction generated helps reduce its stickiness.
As far as cracking goes, I found that acrylic based paints and cellulose paints should not be mixed due to their different expansion rates. Hope this may help.
Best of luck with your following endeavours.
From The Amazing Tony Webs

Tony Webs,

Thanks for your suggestion. However, when masking with tape, I ONLY use the blue painters' tape specified for delicate surfaces. It can get fairly expensive, too. I do a lot of color layers, pinstriping, etc. on some projects, and every line or block must be masked separately. Sometimes, I may only be spraying an area 1/16" x 1/2". It sounds crazy to think I have to mask almost the entire project to spray such a small area, but over-spray can also ruin previous work. I do use newspaper to block out larger areas, though. One of the things I face is that sometimes many small areas need to be masked individually to get a certain result. The photo shows one such job. In such cases, I can't leave the tape that masks outside areas on too long. It is safer to change all the tape rather than risk leaving tape on any area too long. Any tape will eventually react with the paint and grab too hard.

I go through a LOT of tape. It is the only tape I trust. If I get 8 or 10 color layers on, I can't afford to have the tape rip up a chunk. That can ruin a couple weeks worth of work in some cases.

~michael