What's the problem with Ms. Direction?

Do other arts have as many practitioners with puritanical viewpoints, or this unique to magic?

There is nudity in the visual arts, theater, circus, etc. It can be used tastefully, seductively, and intelligently. Why not a magic show? Movies and novels can address serious issues, why not a magic show? Theater can call attention to prejudices and shock us into considering other world views, why not a magic show?

I think the tragedy is that magicians are unwilling to push the envelope, to explore what it is to be an artist - a spokesman.

Rather, we threaten expulsion to those who have a vision different than our own as we go to our next "ring" meeting and learn a new way to twist those family-friendly balloons.

"Comedy, Tricks, and Naked Chicks"

Love it.

I'm sure it was very tasteful, seductive and intelligent!

This reminds me of the old show biz story of the Hindu rope trick and the Indian rope trick. The Hindu tossed the rope in the air. It became stiff and a little boy climbed the rope and vanished...

The rope fell to the stage.

In the same theater the next week there was an Indian magician and he did the Indian rope trick. He tosses a rope in the air it became stiff and a knock out drop dead gorgeous girl climbed the rope and then vanished

The rope fell to the stage...

The Indian rope trick and performer were the more successful of the two.

Why? because sex sells... Some people say sex sells everything from mouth wash to drugs to cars to tooth paste.

Blackstone and 50 - 50 Mostly gorgeous girls was a drawing card. The thing about sex and flash dance shows is that people will pay money to see it.

I feel (sadly) they are more willing to pay for that kind of show than a magic show in Las Vegas. Why? because it makes money and there is a market for this kind of entertainment.

Magicians talk about this like it is some sort of new thing but it is not. I look at this like blue material in magic. There is a market for it and the producers are selling this kind of show because people are willing to pay for it.

The same for off color and blue material shows. Well as long as they are performed for an audience of adult over 21 audiences that are expecting to see that kind of a show I see no problems...

I would rather see a woman sawed in half than a man any day... But that is me! Others may have another way at looking at things.

Truthteller and Jonathan have good points here. (As well as a few others).

It *can* be cheap, or it can be great Art, completely depends.

Censoring it is simply idiotic.

I still can't believe that Violence is more acceptable than sex in our media anyhow. Simple things, if you hide it, make it something sordid, and dirty, then it *will be such*.

Not a very religious man here, but I feel very close to god when making love to a beautiful woman. (Close up there to surfing on a perfect day, or wandering under redwoods trees in the rain.) There is nothing cleaner, or healthier. I consider the female body to be one of God's finest scupltures. Expressing my sentiment for this Art in my own is something I cannot speak against.

However, when it is sold like McDonald's hamburgers, then yes, there is an obvious "cheapening". Most of the world is rather screwed up about sex, and has been for several thousand years, and it causes various problems and frictions.


There is another aspect of this. An aspect that has little to do with using topless girls in your show or not...Magic, performed properly is a very intimate Art. They tell me David Roth said something along these lines. Often strangers treat me like we've just had some sort of intimate relationship after magic, in quite the same way as women after sex. The parallels between magic and sex, and some of the related issues are a very valuable study, in my opinon, but this forum has issues with that.

The best I can say is, many magicians treat magic in the way many men treat sex...doing it "to someone" instead of "for someone" or "with someone".

With my magic, I try and create and environment in which it is safe to forget about "how" and partake in the pleasure of why. It is a joint-expedition, a journey if you will, through some of the most facisinating regions of the human mind and body; a journey that ranges in it's scope from the astounding to the outright sensual, a journey that wherever we end up, is ultimately, beautiful.

That is what I strive for in a magic performance. It is also *exactly* what I seek in my love-making.

Draw your own conclusions, but don't start censoring...

I'd guess from the advertisement that this production treats the women as ornaments for titillation. I’m not in favor of that.

Of course, I'm making that assumption about this show based on very limited information. Advertisers often exaggerate and/or mislead.

There’s a difference between nudity as art, such as the nude scene in the recent version of the movie, “The Titanic”, and presenting women as sex objects without any other context. The former is fine, the latter degrades women and encourages negative attitudes in many men.

It’s not about being a prude. Sex is wonderful. The nature of human beings is germane to this issue. We all have freedom, but it takes conscious effort to actually make free choices and override our habits. And we all know how difficult it is to change bad habits.

Training our minds to objectify women as sex objects has a danger. It can lead to isolating us from women as people.

When I was about 20 years old, I overheard a woman who was about 50 years old saying that she was glad she was old, because she could finally be friends with men without dealing with all that garbage. It was very clear from what she said that the problem was with the men. How sad is that? I’ve never forgotten that.

Again, one only has to look at how women are treated on the Internet to see the way many men view women; objects to be used. Some women have left certain chat areas on the Internet because of the abuse they received there. Anonymity and a bad attitude bring out the worst in some men.

I think most men, and I include myself, have been guilty of objectifying women at one time or other. It’s really easy to do.

I suspect that the pay disparity for women in the industry I work in, i.e. engineering, is also a result of this attitude. I know this disparity exists in many other professions too.

Nudity in art can be ok. Nakedness as exploitation is bad for society.

I'm all for freedom and in a free country people can have shows that exploit women if they want, but I won't pay for them. I wouldn’t be able to look my mother and my sister in the eye if I did. I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror either.

Exploitation is not a good thing IF there is actually exploitation going on...I doubt if these women are being beaten and abused in order to get them to get naked...they may be exploiting themselves and that IS up to them to do or not...

I still wonder why so many pay to see it?

Doug

Misogyny with or without clothes says little for us.

As to an act that presents an erotic escort service... perhaps it might have merit.

If you are referring to "exotic dancing" combined with trite and unmotivated stage conjuring... I have to agree about the work appealing to base impulses instead of aesthetics.

Then again, most of our craft is presented with little in the way of aesthetics.

Not many of us own up to the images and messages we present.

I agree about the explotation of women, and seeing them as sexual objects as being awful. What is ironic is that the guys that do such things clear the playing field for those of us that do not.

However, Dan, you need to be very careful. A nude woman in magic OR a stripper is different than being a prostitute.

Your personal views do not make a law. My girlfriend often runs around topless, or indeed naked on beaches, and at various parties, etc. We have been in a mutually loyal relationship for nearly three years now. I wouldn't object to her posing nude for a wide range of activities. There is nothing perverted MY body, or hers...your feelings about your own and the people you know, are your own.

There are cultural, and comfort issues at stake here. I just happened to "come of age" shall we say in Europe, where, (thankfully!) they are far more civilized about such issues. Yes, there are naked women on large billboards, everywhere. The beaches are full of topless, or completely naked people. The attitude however, is far from perverted, it is calm, casual, and it really *feels good*. Americans could do with some long lessions in sexuality from across the pond...

Bottom line: I feel that these Vegas shows probably ARE NOT the highest elevation of our Art. I would not censor them though, NOR insult the women who work in them. If anyone needs a little chastising, it might be the men who go, but if they're just out on the town, having a good time, I see nothing wrong with comedy, magic, and naked women...sounds like what many of the admittedly more private parties I've thrown turn into...

And again, while this probably isn't the highest elevation of our Art, as I state in my above post, I believe that certain things that have to do with sex are important in magic.

Dan, please be more polite and open minded if you are going to discuss in open forum. Please keep in mind that many people live in many different places, and have different beliefs.

Some of us are more concered with the daily mutlilation/murder of the human body, then exposing it as God sculpted it.

First to Hooper, this is about the exploitation of women. I can see that in different countries it would be of the norm. I have seen that in some countries they have nude news. My main point is that there should not be a place in magic for this. It makes the magic less enjoyable. Like I have said in one of my other posts is that these are my opinions and everyone is entitled to their own. And as far as what I said about fat girls. I only said this to point out that most men that would go to these shows probably wouldn't if the women were overweight. And no, to me no matter what the weight of a person is it does not mean that their personality is bad. Just because someone is overweight doesn't mean they should be taken as nasty. It is always what is on the inside that counts the most. I have had a friend that became a stripper and subjects herself to this lifestyle and doesn't understand that men just look at her as an object and not as art. If she posed nude for pictures that go in an art museum it would be different. But that is my opinion.