It's been said before that the closest performing art to magic is stand-up comedy, and it seems to apply in this realm too.

Comedians stealing other comics' jokes. Milton Berle got known as the "The Thief of Bad Gags." And was disliked by many of his peers for that very reason.

But he made a lot of money, too.

Unfortunate, to say the least.

But, aside from peer pressure, there's probably not a lot a performer can do legally about some stolen material.

Now, however, audiences are so exposed to comedy via cable, movies, television that they are more aware when a performer is unoriginal or derivative.

Unfortunately, most audiences have not been similarly exposed to a wide range of magicians--and so they will usually not recognize when "a magician" is stealing someone else's material.

Until that happens i.e. more educated audiences, I'm afraid that there's not much that can be done.

Jon's comments offer hope for future moral progress. I guess I am more pessimistic; I think as time goes on, we improve in some areas, but we go backwards in others.

If I remember my Beckett, " The tears of the world are a constant."

Jack Shalom

Marco, there is a limited amount of stuff I can, or anyone can use in a set proffesional show.

*Anything* that I will actually use in my show, is easily worth $50 dollars and more. Also, if the idea is good enough that I would use it in a show, then I'd like to know the history and thinking behind it, as well as whatever else is in the book since it must be a good source of stuff, since I am already thinking about using something by that creator.

Also, is being ethical always economical? Do you think that it is "worth it" to be an ethical individual?

I believe it was said best on another forum:

"Even if you don't have the self-control to stop yourself from [stealing], at the very least don't condone it to others"

How could I be so stupid? When I was new, and I could do nothing in magic, I tried to use my psychic powers to devine the secrets of magic. When that failed, I wanted to buy a book. But why would I go out and get the Royal Road, when ten dollars is too much. I should have gotten some local thief, I mean professional magician, to teach me. And if the dweeb wanted to charge me for the time, then I should have waited for one of his shows and secretly videotaped it (with a borrowed video camera, of course--they are expensive.) I should have looked for some idiot that had paid for one of Harris' Art of Astonishment books and cozied up to him and borrowed it for just a few minutes and then secretly photocopied the good stuff. I didn't know how stupid it was to buy Chicago Surprise, when I could have borrowed it--or I could have snuck the manuscript out of its baggie and looked at it behind the Cups counter at my local shop.

What I don't understand is why Haydn spent the time and resources to develop the routine in the first place if he could have just used stolen material in his own routine.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

By the way, Mr. Bishop, I saw your card to pocket routine on the net, and I must say it looks interesting. I may have to borrow it for a while. Yes, I like this new style of magic. It is much easier.

Darn, I wasn't supposed to tell Glen that I was doing that, was I? Stupid, stupid, stupid.

j/k Mr. Bishop. It was a great routine, but I am not going to borrow it. But I would watch out for Marco.

Funny, Chris. You cannot compare Haydn`s abilities to yours. His were inherent genius, like perfect hearing for example. Of course Haydn picked up on melodies and routines from the other great masters. Get that finally!!!

I am just speaking the truth here. You are speaking about something you would like it to be, nothing more.

And stop being the good guy here. I am sick of it.

To Daegs: I think I said enough about you and your ideas. You are even a greater hypocrite than the rest in here. You are probably stealing more than anybody else in here. Don`t get upset, buddy. You called me a thief long ago, so cool down or you will lose your halo!

I am sure that Mr. Haydn will forgive me. I of course do not compare his abilities with mine. That is why I use his routines and he does not use mine. That is also why I choose to buy his routines rather than steal them.

But maybe you could help me Marco. I do not know enough magicians to steal from, so tell me how I should start this new life of mine. I keep hoping that if I stare at my walls long enough, wonderful ideas will come to me, but they don't. Since I don't know anyone to steal from, I am forced to buy their books. I don't even know enough people to borrow their books. Where should I look?

Marco,

I haven't said anything new, and I didn't say anything I haven't repeatedly said since first joining this thread. I still find myself in great agreement with Chris, Daegs and others regarding the path we choose to pursue our magic. In Chris's case, is it inconvenient (or even difficult) for him to ALWAYS buy the book or ask permission before doing something new? Definitely. Is it impossible to do this? Not by any means. Chris is very clear on how he wants to conduct himself. As am I. It's not impossible or unrealistic; it's simply a path that some of us choose -- sometimes a thorny one, but one we're probably going to stick with anyway.

Best...

We might get further by asking Marco to give us examples, as his perspective may well be that of the celebrated man in the streets of our magic society.

Over to you Marco. What do you suggest?

I am sure that I am not knowingly stealing anything, and also that I'm sure you have stolen more than I.

Marco, you are the biggest hypocrite of all if you aren't the biggest thief here, because here you are telling us we are stupid for buying things and it is smart to steal... If you don't steal the most things, then YOU are the hypocrite.

So which is it? Are you the biggest thief or the biggest hypocrite?

Thanks, Open Traveller,

I do realize that the question of inadvertently borrowing elements of a routine in easier to do if you are a professional then if you are a lowly amateur like me. If you see hundreds of magicians a year, routines may start to blend together. But it is still possible for professionals to be careful, through careful documentation and notes, etc.

But newer magicians need to be careful in a different way. Newer magicians steal, more often than not, by watching a performance and just using the routine as witnessed, or by actively seeking video of performances on the net and swiping those. This is easy to avert, and it is something that we should strive for.

Marco you have had your fun guessing which of us you think are thieves, hypocrites, and liars. But rather than simply tell us how bad most of us really are, why don't you share with us (but no jokes), specifically (not in general,) what someone, (not necessarily you,) might do who is honest about what he does to acquire new effects. Use realistic examples.

For example, let us say that one of our Café members has a web site with a video section of effects that he sells, on site. There is one video with a cool cards across routine, that is a variation of Paul Harris' Leaper routine but incorporates three French Poodles and a roll of Toilet Paper. It is hilarious. Paul Harris even leaves a blurb stating that the effect is the funniest cards across routine he has ever seen.

You want to perform the routine; you have figured out the effect, and you do not wish to push the PayPal button. What do you do?

Feel free to modify the story if you wish.

I appreciate Chris`s attempt to do what he tries to do. I also understand that Open Traveller sees things the same.
Whom I don`t understand is Daegs. Read my post again my friend. I did not condone stealing. I am talking about things about which you already know how they work. In my view this is absoulutely Ok, as some other people here have said too.

Marco,

Let's see how we can address this point: What I hear you saying is that if you're "talking about things which you already know how they work," the fact that you simply know how it works entitles you to perform it. This seems to be at the core of our difference in perspectives. To my mind, the mere fact that we may know how something works doesn't equal entitlement to it. Entitlement is another thing altogether, and it's never automatic (except where you're entitled to your own original creations, of course).

If you have some reasoning to support a different viewpoint, of course, I'm all ears...

I see no reason to buy a trick if you already know it, especially if it is just two moves or so. You don`t need to get the same patter of course (nobody really does that), but why pay for something that you already know? A good example is two-card monte. There is nobody here who can explain that reasonably to me.
And I don`t believe anybody really tries to contact the originator all the times, etc., etc. This is unnatural. Spending time or money on something you already know, especially if you see it on TV or so.

Marco, I do appreciate your attempt to clarify your position. You say it is not stealing if you already know how it works. It would still help to give an example. Do you mean you independently develop a routine that you later found out was invented 50 years ago? That would not be stealing, obviously. Are you saying you happen to figure out an effect by watching it? We will even assume you did not actively try to figure out how it was done--it just came to you. You are not stealing, until you decide to use the effect in performances and you have not purchased the rights to the effect. I think that part is easy.

Hi, Marco,

By "Two Card Monte," you're referring, of course, to Eddie Fechter's "Be Honest, What Is It?" that was first printed in a book called Magicians Nightly. That's the REAL name of the trick, and that's where it REALLY started.

Of course, if the trick hadn't been "lifted," repackaged and marketed in that form, everybody would still remember where it came from and who it started with. Now, for better or for worse, the effect seems to be in the public domain of magicians, but perhaps you can see how what's happened to it has hurt the history of magic and the memory of Eddie Fechter -- a seminal entertainer and important influence in the development of close-up magic.

There are those of us who, as I've mentioned time and again, wish to honor the originators to the best of our ability. We're the ones who remember people like Eddie Fechter, and we try to preserve the intent of current creators and originators so that perhaps they won't be so easily forgotten, either.

Honoring those who create and contribute is a part of the schema of magic. To do that, quite often you have to give back in return instead of simply taking what's there to be taken. Sometimes that really does mean paying for something you already know. Other times that means working with people to make sure their original intentions are honored. Still other times, that means something else altogether. It's all a part of giving back, of being a member of something larger than yourself...and working to preserve it and keep it healthy.

Perhaps you can understand why I'm saddened each and every time someone refers to the effect as "Two Card Monte" or to the Penetrating Rubber Bands as "Crazy Man's Handcuffs." Maybe you can understand why I feel for my friend, Presley Guitar, who invented both "Copper-Silver-Brass" and the modern method for "Cigarette Through the Quarter."

Other people suggested, as you have, that once they knew how these things worked it was theirs for the taking. And they did, leaving the originators with nothing. And how many people remember or honor them now? Only a few like myself who pay attention to these things.

Would you have me believe that because this is the way things often are that this is the way things should be? That we should simply accept it, go with it, foster it, perpetuate it? Please don't tell me that's what you're saying. If it is, what of magic then? What of its rich and deep history that will forever be forgotten because no one cared to preserve it? What of its people, those who keep it alive and going because they create and share? Should we simply continue to feed off of them, taking from them without regard simply because we can?

I'm sorry. I cannot condone this. I simply can't side with you on this point.

I know how to do Fechter's effect, "Be Honest, What Is IT?", as well. But I don't perform it. I do perform his "That's It," which Michael Ammar teaches. I trust that Ammar received whatever permission was needed to teach the effect. I know that "Two-Card Monte" is taught on several DVD's, such as Born to Perform. I do not know whether Penguin's inclusion of this effect on their DVD is legit, or are they just teaching it as if it were in the Public Domain. Maybe someone here can clarify that. I would not call someone a thief, though, if they had BTP.

When someone learns "two card monte" by seeing it, they will likely not know about the rest of Eddie Fetcher's work.

This is similar to the folks playing with the fingerpalm and claiming some familiarity with "Ramsay Subtlety".

As I recall those books are full of goodies and when published they were not expensive. About the price of a DVD or two at the most.

The FEW one-trick publications one might want to purchase are "Out of This World" and "Card Warp". There are good reasons for the survey type books that come out every decade or so, and the magazines that catch the latest and greatest variations as they happen.

Marco said:


Because it's the right thing to do!!!!!

Do you really not understand or believe this?

"And I don`t believe anybody really tries to contact the originator all the times, etc., etc."

Believe it!!! Once I found out that the new crazy of "two card monte" was really Fetcher's effect, I bought Fetcher's book so I would have the rights to perform it. BELIEVE IT.

And not only did I get the real work on the effect(more than you would find on any new DVD) and the best ending for it, but also tons of other great material that is 100% real world usable and some killer magic.

Do yourself a favor and buy the book, Marco, it will definatly improve your magic more than watching Blaine's special over and over to figure things out ever will.

Folks, you are not going to encourage a civil discussion by taunting Marco.

If you want to know what someone believes, see how they act.

If you want to know where someone draws lines for okay and not okay, ask them in a way that does not force a confrontation.