Nick Trost’s trick Double Discovery published in his book The Card Magic of Nick Trost is a very startling self-worker where the spectator themselves deal a random packet of cards to reveal the 4 Kings and the 4 Aces.

Does anybody perform it and what presentation / motivation do they use for the dealing?

I have slightly modified the effect so that a card is selected and lost in the deck. The last card they deal is their selection, which seems to be the end of the effect before they get hit with the 4-of-a-king revelations.

Not sure it’s any better but I’ve been struggling to find a presentation which does not involve gambling.

If you don't know the trick here it is. Remember, it's a hands-off handling. If it triggers any presentational thoughts, don't hesitate to share.

Claudio,

I am aware you don't want a gambling theme, but this is what I came up with, since Trost's trick reminded me of Chad Long's "Shuffling Lesson".

"I have a strict rule: never play cards with strangers. But I am aware this could mean to waste some good chance for a nice game and maybe, miss some possible revenues ...

So I've devised a little test, disguised as a magic trick, to see how a stranger would behave with a pack of cards in his/her hands! Here it is!"

At this point you have a card selected which (I seem to understand) you control face up, fifth from the bottom, just above the four kings.
You proceed with the trick as described, with the exception that the last card in spec's hand is the selection. The selection is revealed. At this point you could say that if you were actually playing poker the four face down card in front of you would be the other cards belonging to your hand. Turn them over to reveal the four Kings!
"Wow, you seem a dangerous person to play against! Lemme see one more thing ..."

Turn the packets over, reveal the four aces and ...
"Alright. I'm definitely never gonna play cards with you!!!"

Nothing original, but makes sense and should get a laugh at the end.

Mark

Thanks Mark.

I like your tongue-in-cheek patter. It’s certainly something I’d use if I were to perform this trick as a gambling effect but I’m trying to shy away from it as I already have too many of them.

This effect fits so much a gambling theme that it might be difficult to find alternatives, but I’m still working on it. Maybe a fortune-telling script would work.

I love the procedure per se though and I have used it to force 4 (or at times 8) cards in mental effects.

PS: Your correctly sussed out the position of the selection in my slightly modified handling.

Claudio, your idea of a fortune telling theme seems great. In that case why not use a Tarot deck?


I would have the spec deal to me unlucky cards and then reveal good ones for himself. Among the 22 "Arcani maggiori" you are spoilt for choice.

Great idea!
Bravo!

Hi Claudio,

I agree with mlippo: your thoughts of working it into a fortune-telling plot sounds terrific!

I bought the book when it first came out, and pored over it nonstop, making all sorts of annotations on each routine. On Double Discovery I wrote at that time, "This is clever and very startling. However, the method of selecting the 'middle' is too weird and indirect.'"

Of course, I was thinking about it as a gambling or card-sharp effect. In that context, the actions are hardly believable. In other words, if the plot is to take a bunch of cards from the middle for what follows, then the spectator ought to be able to just...well...take a bunch of cards from the middle.

But given that fortune-telling has its own rules not necessarily known at the gaming table, Trost's procedure, while still unusual, can easily be motivated as "that's how fortune-tellers do it."

So, here's what comes to me along those lines. In the first phase, the participant cuts the pack into three talons. This would be a perfect time to talk about the Past, Present and Future. Assign those meanings to the three packets, or why they are variously face-up or face-down.

In the next phase when four piles are dealt out, I'd be tempted to give them meaning as the four elements (Fire, Air, Earth and Water) or something similar just to motivate them.

My point being that the performer imparts significance to the three piles and then the four piles as having something to do with how fortune-tellers ply their trade. It's goofy, yes, but possesses an internal logic within the context of the story, if you get my drift. The entire business of turning a middle portion over within the pack can be made to seem as though you, the performer, are merely obeying how things have always been done in the past.

Another thing, from the mystical point of view, with regard to the script: I'd be tempted to do this with four Kings and four Queens (gentlemen and ladies) instead of the gambler's Aces and Kings. I think there would be good possibilities for something intriguing and amusing there. Sort of an internal logic, as it were.

So, Trost has given us an excellent method, and now it comes down to imparting a reasonable interpretation to the somewhat weird actions. Your notion of framing it around fortune-telling could very well provide that and make it all seem consistent (at least theatrically so).

mlippo's idea of transferring this to the Tarot cards opens things up still further. Again, the weirdness of cutting the pack to find a bunch in the middle all of a sudden seems "reasonable," as if it was something a cartomancer might do.

So in a nutshell: I think a fortune-teller theme for the script sounds just the ticket, with lots of possibilities to fit the character of the performer (and those of the spectators).

And thanks, Claudio, for reminding us of Nick Trost's fine methodology. You've got me brainstorming the method now with some non-playing cards (Zener, alphabet, number, etc.)

Thomas Henry

Lovely method of knowing a card. After reading the trick I came up with the following. "For some reason spectators are always a little dubious when a magician asks them to pick a card. Here is the fairest way I know. I am going to deal the cards into a few piles. Decide with your friends which pile to use. Take a card from the middle of that pile, look at it , then put it back on top of any other pile. Now recreate the deck by putting any pile on top of another pile. Now you can cut the deck - twice if you want . My back will be turned." Look through the deck, Find their card and top palm it. "Its no good I cant find it. - Here find the card for me and put it face down on the table so maybe I can try a different way." Hand them the deck as you do card to wallet.
REVEAL

Sorry - Similar method but slightly different trick. 4 known on top, 4 known on bottom - Selection in a sandwich

For some reason, I’ve missed the last posts on this thread.

Using tarot cards is an excellent idea, thanks Mark, but not practical for me as I rarely carry them. I’m still working on a script based around fortune-telling but have made little progress.

Thanks, Thomas, for the suggestions based around the classical elements. I’ll look into that in more details. I also like the idea about the ESP cards.

BTW, I agree that the Trost method to select a packet from the middle doesn’t match any known gambling procedure, but it’s not an issue unless you pretend to be the “real deal” and only present hardcore gambling demos. In gambling magic, it’s easy to get around it with a good story. Even the late, extremely skilful Ricky Jay was no stranger to using pseudo gambling demos that had nothing to do with accepted table procedures.

Cuchullain, the Trost method is so ingenuous that it can be adapted to many plots.

Also, it’s worth noting that you’ve not limited to dealing 4 packets. There could be fewer or more packets. In the location effect you describe in your first post, you might as well use 4 (or more) spectators, ie 4 (or more) selections. Personally, when I use this method, I prefer forcing the cards (top cards of my memorized stack).

From my old own notes, here’s a pseudo-gambling trick description that I have jotted down, but not developed fully. In a nutshell:

Royal Flush in Spades
1. Set-up the JS, QS, KS and AS on the top of the deck.
2. Force the 10S.
3. “Bury” the 10S under the top 4 cards using Marlo’s Tilt and double cut those 5 cards to the bottom.
4. Riffle shuffle the deck and turn over the 5 bottom cards using Vernon’s Reversal of Bottom Cards
5. Use the Trost cutting to have a packet from “the middle” selected.
6. Have a spectator deal 4 piles. The last card will be their selection. The top card of the 4 packets will form a Royal Flush in Spades.

It only uses the bottom setup. You could of course setup the cards to the top and end up with the four spades to the bottom of the packet, but I think it’s more aesthetically pleasing to turn over the top card of each packet.

I meant to write “The Trost method is so *ingenious*”. Also, I forgot that the All in the cards sub-forum is for sleightless card tricks, so sorry for describing a trick with a couple of sleights. The original effect is superior to mine, anyway.

This is the most recently visited thread, that I could find, referring to the wonderful book that this trick came from - The Card Magic of Nick Trost.

I know we are discussing Double Discovery specifically on here and I have been reading the posts above, with interest, to help shape my presentation for this as well. The method in this trick is simply devilish, which I why I love it. If I come up with something interesting, I will certainly share it.

To the point of my post … and please forgive me for a broader question than the topic on hand. Does anyone have knowledge of a DVD/Video series that covers Mr Trost’s best effects, which presumably would include many from this outstanding book? I would love to see a bunch of these in action to bring some extra life to the book’s excellent descriptions.

Cheers!

There is a series of DVD by Aldo Colombini called Aldo on Trost available on lybrary for example, but some may possibly be out of stock.

Regarding the effect itself, I wonder if anyone has ever modified the setup to obtain the same result. I have, for example, removed the reversed cards, which allows for the same result but a freer handling and magician's choice of the packet to be turned over.

Thanks Claudio. I had noticed those, and there seems to be dozens of them in the series!! I will certainly look through them all, as each has a table of contents listed and I should be able to pick out a couple that I would really want.

I guess I was hoping to see Mr. Trost on video himself, doing his thing!

Maybe he was at his best a bit before videos became a popular medium . . .

Btw, I haven't tried any set-up modifications yet, but I will have a play around with your idea.

Claudio, I am so grateful you started this thread; I have really enjoyed learning this effect. I have had this book for several years and somehow overlooked this gem... Thanks for reminding me of it!

You're welcome, Joe. So many gems in Trost's books!

Thanks for sharing this, Claudio. The Nick Trost procedure in "Double Discovery" has great potential. I've devised two decent tricks using it, almost by accident, based on what I call the "Clue Cards" plot and an old self-working force using a handkerchief:

"The Tell-Tale Hearts" - A spectator cuts to a random card, e.g. 7H. Some cards are removed from the middle of the deck and dealt into three piles. The top card of each pile tells you the identity of the chosen card. For example, these cards might be the 4H, AH and 2H. When you sum the pips, you get a total of seven hearts, which indicates that the chosen card is the 7H. You then say that you need the four Aces for your next trick. The AH is placed to one side. A magical gesture is made over the three piles. Each pile is turned face up to reveal the three remaining Aces.

"Tell Me Twice" - Two random cards are cut to by two different spectators and removed from the deck. Again, some cards are removed from the centre of the pack and divided into three piles. The top three cards indicate the identity of the first spectator's card, while the bottom three do the same for the second spectator's selection.

I've written these brief descriptions here to remind me to fully explain the tricks on my blog. Give me a nudge if I forget to do this!

Marty

P.S. I also think Trost's trick would make for a good fortune-telling-themed triple prediction effect! Again, I'd only use three piles (past, present and future) for the reading and finish with the "for my next trick, I need the four Aces" kicker. Instead of forcing a card, there would be some kind of written prediction.

Another idea that avoids presenting this as a gambling routine is framing it as a story trick. Kostya Kimlat has a fun effect, which he performed in his At the Table Lecture called "Who Killed the King?" which involves the four Queens, the KH and the 6S.



I've always thought this trick would work with regular-sized cards as a close-up or parlour item (Kostya does it as a stage trick). The "Double Discovery" handling would work well in this context. First, force the KH using the same self-working handkerchief force I mentioned before. To justify the handkerchief, cover the dead king with it as you talk about the autopsy. Then, point out the knife in his head and the extra hands with different sleeves.

Then perform "Double Discovery" to locate the "four suspects" (the four Queens). Finally, turn the packets over to reveal three more victims of the killer (the KS, KD and KC). However, the murderer has slipped up and left a clue (the 6S).

I'd also be inclined to get a Sharpie marker and put little Xs on the eyes of the Kings so it is more evident that they're dead.

If you watch the video of Kostya's trick, all this nonsense should make sense!

Marty

P.S. I'll also write this up as "The Mystery of the Murdered Monach" when I find the time!

Right, I've managed to write the tutorial for "The Tell-Tale Hearts" on my blog. The other two trick tutorials will follow when I have more time to finish them.

Marty