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EagerlyLearning New user 93 Posts 
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Hi. I've learned the mnemonica order by Tamariz. I learned it a few years ago, initially by writing the number on each card, and integrating the number visually on the card, and by giving it a meaning ,such as writhing the number "11" in the face of queen of hearts, like two tears running down her eyes, making her the "sad queen of hearts" etc.
I was just wondering: after a while, I stop thinking about the meaning, and I just "know". I don't have to think, I just immediately know that 11 is the queen of hearts, because it has been formed a strong association in the mind. BUT - should I still keep on reminding myself about the meaning of each card and look at the cards I initially made - just in case I forget? Do I still need to practice the memorization, keeping it alive , or will it stick in the mind forever? (I suppose part of the answer is depending on how much I use the mnemonica actively in my magical routines also? ) |
Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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I suggest you use some of the free online mem deck programs. There are several, perhaps folks can share their favorite.
Some dedicated and generous magi who also have magical ability with computers have come up with a lot of impressive tools to help the community. You may not ever totally forget a stack once it is memorized, but in order to use it to its fullest you really do need to use it on a regular basis. Yes, maybe you never forget to ride a bike, but if you are going to race, you must continue training. Look at performing like racing.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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FaroFaroFaro Regular user 112 Posts
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It’s part of my daily routine to test my memory of my mnemonica stack. I have used and app such as Stackmaster but I have a deck I have numbered on the back. I just shuffle then deal and name with the numbered backs or deal the faces and name the number.
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Bobby Forbes Inner circle virginia beach, VA. 1571 Posts
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To make it a little more interesting you could hold the cards face down with just the numbers on the backs showing, and deal them as fast as you can into red and blacks, or separate the suits, etc. then turn the cards over and see how many mistakes you made. This helps you with speed, recognizing the cards as fast as possible. Also you could keep the cards face up and separate the cards into 2 piles, cards 1-26 in one then the rest in the other. Then flip them over to see how many mistakes you made. If you are dealing slow and pausing on certain cards to think for a few extra seconds, you need to keep practicing. When you can deal the cards at a steady pace with minimal hesitation, you have your stack down pretty darn good.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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Quote:
On Oct 9, 2022, EagerlyLearning wrote: No, you don't need the visual pegs anymore, but yes, you do need to practice or you can lose it. But forget about the pegs; your brain should should be card to number, number to card from now on. Just practice without the intermediate step.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1198 Posts
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Hi EagerlyLearning,
You seem to be worried you will suddenly forget out of the blue. That's not how the brain works, Once you "just know" something, you only need a certain amount of practice to keep it in your memory. We practice most things on a regular basis without even realising it. Eg. reading, writing, talking, maths, driving, etc. If you use your mem-deck knowledge on a regular basis that should keep it fresh. This might be as little as once a week or once a month. I don't know, but it's less than you might expect. The only situation you need to worry about is if you don't use (or deliberately practice) for some considerable time, and your memory starts to fade. In that situation, your original system would be useful to re-learn. But this is only IF you let it fade away - maybe if you gave up magic, then returned to it. You will find the information comes flooding back really quickly and will be even more strongly embedded. I know this because I have done it with various topics (eg getting rusty in French when I haven't been to France for a few years.) I read somewhere years ago that it is beneficial to forget something then re-learn it. Ironically I can't remember the context now though! So, to answer your actual question - You don't need to practice your initial system "just in case" you forget, because you won't forget what you now "just know" so long as you use it fairly often. AND you don't need to practice the original system just in case you think you might need the system after you aver have a long break. Cross that bridge if/when you ever come to it. |
Mb217 Inner circle 9538 Posts
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I’m a decent-at-best coin guy, that happens to like card magic a bit. Over the past couple of years, I really made an effort to improve with cards and succeeded in ways I never dreamed. I’ve been all over the place with card stuff during Covid, and even took to learning Mnemonica…TWICE! Why twice, you say…Well, that’s because after getting it down the first time, I became a bit lax with it and it just left my mind. It might be because I didn’t use it a lot.
I did eventually get back to it, and endeavored to get it down again, and lo & behold it came back to me. What I learned is that you gotta keep playing with this thing if you want to remember it well. I too learned it from word associations with the cards, and used to do several of the Tamariz tricks with it. It is an absolutely wonderful system of card magic and well worth the endeavor, and I’m real happy I took the time to learn it, and even re-learn it. But alas, I have forgotten the cards yet again, and it simply comes from not practicing. As long as you practice, you remember a lot of it and only need mild brush-up along the way. But miss using it for a while and you can forget the sequence of the 52 cards just like that. You might remember some, but with this, you really need to remember it all or it won’t work right if at all. Anyway, I guess my suggestion is to give it some attention to it daily, or at least every few days or so to stay in good practice with it. I know that there are some people that might have this thing down forever, but my experience with it tells me that most people won’t. Good journey to you. 
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb 
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Ray J Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1503 Posts
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Quote:
On Oct 9, 2022, EagerlyLearning wrote: Check out the cornucopia of information in the following link: http://headinside.blogspot.com/2008/06/m......box.html Practice may not make perfect, but in my opinion your performance will benefit from regular quizzing. Whether that is once a day, week, month or whatever, regular exercise just makes sense.
It's never crowded on the extra mile....
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Blindside785 Inner circle Olympia, WA 4544 Posts
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I guess a good test of it would be to put it down for a week and see if you have the same recall. The way you are remembering things is perfect and the same way I do it. I can put down performing a mnemonica effect for 6 months (I don't perform that often) and I can get back into it without thinking. Give it a rest and see how your recall goes
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jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts
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Hey gang, here's a free mem-deck practice tool I recently built. It has (with the proper persmission from the creators):
- Mnemonica - Aronson - Memorandum - Nikola - Reford Link: Mem Deck Tool |
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Steve Burton Loyal user 258 Posts
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On Jan 12, 2024, jstone wrote: This is a very nicely done memorizing quiz technique. Kudos, Jeff, for your work and willingness to share. |
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jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts
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This is a very nicely done memorizing quiz technique. Kudos, Jeff, for your work and willingness to share. You're welcome. I'm glad you found it useful. It's been helping me quite a bit. Anytime I have down time, I pull it up on my phone, and practice. :0] |
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Richard Weber New user 19 Posts
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I once read someone asking if there is such a thing as a "knight's tour" that can be used to practice the mnemonica, such as: AC is at 43; add 2 to make 45, which is the JC; add 2 to make KC which is 18, add 2 to make 20 which is JH, and so on until we visit every card. This rule of adding 2, does not work as it returns to AC after visiting just 18 cards.
I wrote a computer program to investigate this. The answer is that there is no knight's tour that can be obtained by varying the addition digit "2", or even by adding a different digit for cards as for numbers. However, after not inconsiderable work, I discovered a very nice tour. The rule is: To a number add 3 and for a card take its mate. So AC is 43; add 3 to make 46 which is QD; mate is QH which is 11; add 3 to make 14 which is 8H; mate is 8D .. visiting all cards until finally ending: ... 3C is 4; add 3 to make 7 which is AS; mate is AC! Of course when adding 3, 50+3=1, 51+3=2. How about that?! You can also start practicing either as above, or by saying "AC has mate AS which is 7; add 3 to make 10 which is 2S, etc". Either way of starting leads to a tour though all 52 cards. |
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3227 Posts
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EagerlyLearning, in addition to practicing, rehearsing, and performing using the stack, I recommend an idea from Simon Aronson.
Once you know a stack, you can practice it anywhere and reinforce your memory. I used to go through the Aronson Stack doing position-to-card while in bed trying to go to sleep, or while being a passenger on a trip. After I went through the numbers from 1 to 52, I then practiced card-to-position going throught the cards in New Deck Order. Sometimes I did the odd numbers from 1 to 51, and then the even numbers from 2 to 52. You get the idea. By repeatedly going through the stack, you'll eventually have no need for pegs, or a memory palace. You'll know them the same way you know the alphabet, or numbers.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1198 Posts
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When I am watching a performance of any card effect, I quite often mentally practice my stack without even realising I am doing it. A spectator selects a card, say the JD, and I can't help thinking "19".
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1954 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2024, Richard Weber wrote: Brilliant! I have yet to test it. Can you start from any card and successfully complete the tour? |
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Richard Weber New user 19 Posts
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On Apr 15, 2024, Claudio wrote: Yes. You can start from any card. Let me know how you get on. My computer program runs through the tour. I suppose I could post the 52 steps. A question I am trying to resolve is whether the existence of such a simple rule for a tour of the mnemonica stack is a miracle, or actually a quite ordinary thing. Given a random stacking, what is the chance we can find a simple rule based on simply adding a small number and taking mates that will generate a complete tour? There are of course 51! possible stacks (51 x 50 x .. x 2= 1.55 x 10^66). The number of simple rules is relatively small. So I am inclining towards thinking it is a miracle. But maybe not. The chance that a randomly chosen permutation of 52 things is a single cycle is 1/52. (Eg. (123456)->(234561) is a single cycle of 6 items, but (123456)->(234165) is the product of two smaller cycles (1234)->(2341) and (56)->(65).)** If each rule we might try has a 1/52 chance of success then we might expect that by trying 52 rules there would be a good chance to find one that works. But this is only intuitive thinking. The actual rule is not just a permutation so more delicate analysis is needed. **This fact is taught in university courses on probability. |
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1954 Posts
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Interesting. One thing though, Mnemonica is not a random stack as it's the result of some controlled overhand runs that mostly reverse the order of the cards and 4 ½ faro shuffles applied to a deck in new deck order. It’s possible to go back to NDO from Mnemonica with a series of runs and faros. I'll bet that finding a simple-rule tour of the Aronson stack is unlikely.
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Richard Weber New user 19 Posts
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On Apr 15, 2024, Claudio wrote: I am glad you appreciate this post. I wasn't sure how many people would see it or care. Here's a surprise. A rule that gives a 52 card tour for the Aronson stack is very similar: "To a number add 1 and for a card take its mate." JS is 1; add 1 to get 2 which is KC; mate is KS which is 43; add one to get 44 which is 6S ... 10D which is 32; add 1 to get 33 which is JC; mate is JS. Again, we can start with any card or number. I don't think that it is because the mnemonica stack is constructed from faros that a rule for a tour exists. By the way the "add 3" that worked for mnemonica does not work for Aoronson. Only "add 1" works. |
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Richard Weber New user 19 Posts
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On Apr 14, 2024, Richard Weber wrote: I realise that my explanation above misses a key detail. The tour created by this rule is actually 102 cards long. Each card is visited exactly twice, once as the mate of the preceding card and once as the card that is 3 positions further from the preceding card in mnemonica order. For example, we see AC visited both as the mate of AS and as 3 cards onward from 4S. So if you try this rule you actual get two practice runs through the stack. It remains remarkable that the tour does not end until all cards are visited both ways. Other rules lead to tours that end before all cards are visited. The same is true for the tour of the Aronson stack that I posted - it also ends the tour after 104 steps. |
Posted: Oct 9, 2022 10:26 am 