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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3038 Posts 
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I recently weighed in on a particular item that was under discussion here on the Café. I would like feedback on what I said versus the response of the creator. Out of respect for that person, I won't reveal the effect or the name of the individual, nor the names of other performers using this routine. I'm not out to get revenge, but merely to seek opinions on the matter. That said, this is my post:
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I have the **** version and it's beautiful - still gets me when I see someone do it, even though I own it and do it myself. The creator of the effect then emailed me. This is the response I got: Quote:
Hey man, I caught your post on Magic Café about my effect. The video of my performance was taped at The **** **** Comedy Club. I did punch up the laughs but there were some people in the crowd. I did not and would not post a video of the entire routine - dummy - that's part of what I'm selling here. Duh! Why would I post the routine for everyone to steal? You say you're not a fan of prewritten routines but "you'll stick to the *** **** version. Well, then if you're going to steal from **** why not buy an original routine or make up your own and sell it? Part of the reason I wrote this and three other original routines for this amazing effect - Not, by the way, actually invented by **** himself, is because EVERYONE is doing his routine. Why not hip it up a little. Use some imagination and come up with your own unique take on it? ****'s take on it is very interesting and he's a very good, personal friend of mine why not buy his? Why cause you'd rather be on magic forums spending your time dissing other people than writing original bits. I was pretty amazed that the creator of an effect would send an email like this to someone. While I will admit that I shouldn't have assumed that the video was completely false, I don't believe this response was necessary. I view the Café not only as a great place to network and share ideas, but also to share opinions on certain things. There's an entire section for reviews - if every single effect and presentation that hit the market was loved by everyone, there would be no point to this. As I stated in my response to this person, I have been in the entertainment business as a musician and comedian for years, and not every review is going to be glowing. My feeling is that it's the way we respond to these reviews that separates the amateurs from the professionals. Any thoughts would be appreciated. If I'm completely off base here, feel free to let me know. Thanks, Andrew
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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Andrew-
I really don't see any blame here either way. You wrote what you considered to be your fair opinion of the product, albeit with assumptions on your part that were incorrect. The response, while a little barbed, was reasoned and sent to you privately and not on the forum. Had this been my effect, the time and effort I put into its creation would make it my "baby" and I would have been equally protective... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3038 Posts
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I understand the need to be protective. I also understand that if you can't take the taste of a little salt, you probably should get out of the ocean. Not every review is going to be glowing and I felt that this wasn't handled well. As I stated, we have an entire section on this forum dedicated to reviews. Is this what's to be expected when someone's view of a product isn't entirely positive? A harsh email from the creator, complete with insults and profanity? Not a very wise business practice in my opinion.
I do want to say that the seller responded to me this morning and apologized for the tone of the email, which I appreciated. Sometimes we say things and let our frustration do more of the talking than we should - I've been guilty of this as much as anyone so I understand, and of course I would be defensive as well. I do maintain, however, that part of a public forum is being able to give our opinions on things without being attacked, and that includes reviews that won't always be 100% positive. I owned a product that Andy Amyx was involved with a few months back and wasn't thrilled with it, and when I posted my thoughts, he took the time to respond to me and ask me what the issues were and offered me suggestions, and even offered to watch a video of my performance so that he could provide feedback on my handling in order to help improve it. I have no problem being contacted by a creator or a seller after posting my thoughts on an item. Andy handled it well and I really appreciated it. The other creator caught me off guard. As I said, he has since apologized, and I'm aware that I shouldn't have assumed the video was false. I just want to continue to have the opportunity to share my opinions on the Café without the fear of a lashing by the creator.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts
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I don't see the problem with criticising the demo video - it's your opinion, and I understand your point of view - if the full routine wasn't included, maybe this should have been made clear in the ad. Without knowing the routine you're talking about, it's difficult to give a balanced opoinion, but surely, you can't just "stick with the original" - and hijack someone else's routine? Here, I agree that you should either buy the other routine, or change it so that it's your own.
All said, I think it's pretty bad form when any creator sends messages like this. A "softly softly" approach is what is needed to keep customers happy, informed, and equipped to go out and create their own original presentations. Just my opinion. Doug  |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3038 Posts
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I think part of the miscommunication was that when I said I was sticking with the original, I was referring to the purchase I'd made...I was going to stick with the physical item I owned, but would create my own patter. I think he interpreted it as me using the original routine, patter and all. I clarified that part when I emailed him so as far as that's concerned I think we're okay
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts
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In that case, I think it's all worked out OK. You certainly deserved an apology, but I understand the guy being a bit upset. He should remember in future that his customers may sometimes be irritating, but ultimately are providing him with business. He could have said the same thing in a much more diplomatic manner,
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Joshua Barrett Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 3631 Posts
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Honestly, if your selling a product you are opening your self for comments. If he does not want them, he should find another way to make a living. its like saying "Im selling this, if you like it please say so, if not shut up cause I need some suckers"
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1249 Posts
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Joshua.... exactly! Whoever this guy is should be seriously ashamed of himself. NEVER treat your potential customers this way. It's tacky, bad form, rude, and unprofessional. The two things that bothers me about some in the magic business is ego and unprofessionalism.
I, personally, want to know exactly who this "creator" and "businessman" is because I will not purchase a thing from him or anyone he is in business with. I think we all should know.
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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mormonyoyoman Inner circle I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only 2440 Posts
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You're probably looking for this post, Pearl:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=6159503 *jeep! and God Bless! --Grandpa
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
--Grandpa Chet |
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1249 Posts
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Thanks for the info. People should be accountable for their behavior.
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts
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Now I've seen the original thread, I can honestly say that I'm appalled. Andrew, if a magic creator sent me a message like that, when all that was posted was an honest opinion, I'd be flaming mad!
You are right, he is wrong. Simple Potty |
TheRaven Special user 597 Posts
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The first two sentences of the creator's message are appropriate. He is correcting an erroneous assumption in your review. The rest is inappropriate.
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M Sini Inner circle 1359 Posts
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While I've never agreed with posting a personal email on a public forum without the consent of the writer, this may be the one exception.
I actually read your review on this item and still bought it. I've never watched the video as I only really wanted the scripts. You said nothing out of line and just gave your opinion. I'm rather surprised by the response you recieve. Glad to see you ultimately got an apology though. |
Floyd Collins Inner circle Ohio 1633 Posts
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I just stumbled across this topic and I have to say I am shocked. First I have corresponded with the creator you refer to many times, and never has he been anything but kind and helpful. There are times when you feel like the world is just not getting what your selling this happens to everyone from time to time. I would like to go on the side of reason; he apologized, may have had a bad day or has been worried that his secrets will be exposed. No one truly knows, but let’s not all just bash him for this e-mail may have been sent out of hast and without a clear head.
I posted my comments about the online demo video in the other tread myself, and I thought it was an in studio promo video and not a live performance. I too would have been shocked to receive the same e-mail you did, but more so because I have corresponded with the creator many times and he has always been helpful and responded in good taste. Anyone reading between the lines and knowing who this person is should know he is no way rude or egotistical as his e-mail may have portrayed him. It is a shame but he did apologize and we are all human and make mistakes. I think it’s a bigger man to apologize and realize they were wrong then to say nothing at all. Andrew I saw nothing wrong in your e-mail to him. You have every right to be upset but please take his apology because I know he is truly a good dude. Just my thoughts. --Floyd
No one said it would be easy, or did they?
Check out my all new book "Chicken Scratches" visit my lulu store for more information. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/thecenterstage http://www.collinscomedymagic.com |
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pearljamjeff Inner circle Ann Arbor 1249 Posts
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Good to here from someone who knows him better. It helps makes his apology seem genuine. Thank you Floyd. I agree that we all have bad days, but if you are putting out a product, you are a business man. That holds you to a code of professionalism, which is just as strong as the magicians' code. I've had a lot of bad days too, and I've never taken it out on a client, employee, or customer. You just can't do that.
Jeff Travilla - I own an advertising agency to help finance my magic addiction.
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Floyd Collins Inner circle Ohio 1633 Posts
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I agree Jeff!! Does not make it right that he did that yet he did make it right with the person he offended so that is now between those two I think.
No one said it would be easy, or did they?
Check out my all new book "Chicken Scratches" visit my lulu store for more information. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/thecenterstage http://www.collinscomedymagic.com |
Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts
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Quote:
On 2009-07-25 09:15, aceofharts wrote: Hoo, man! How many times have we done that...it can take a LONG time to untangle the mess we make... Doug |
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts
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Because I, myself have learned a tough lesson, I'm going to adjust my behavior thusly:
1. When not in a "clear state of mind", I will send no emails. Period. 2. When responding to someone (angry or not), I will wait one day and reread my response. 3. I will NEVER be in a hurry to send an email. Sometimes frustration (and anger) cause us to communicate in a harsher way than intended. Judging something without having ALL THE FACTS can REALLY do damage. Hey, we all make mistakes. Learning from those mistakes and forgiveness go a long way! A friend of mine once said, "Emotion clouds judgment". So true... Doug |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24315 Posts
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On the other hand, sometimes people need to know when a demo video has been altered in order to make a trick or routine more usable than it actually is. I don't believe this was the case in this particular situation.
However, as a reviewer for MUM, I have been sent videos of tricks that simply weren't doable. In one extreme case, the video was intentionally blurred so that you couldn't see a gaff that was very obvious in a real life performing situation. Again, not the case here. When this happens, the buying public needs to know about it. There are some producers of magical apparatus who really hate it when you reveal that their "baby" isn't at the top of the class. Some get angry, some try to get even. That's the breaks.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Posted: Jul 9, 2009 06:35 am 