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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts 
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Gsidhe, you backed yourself into a corner.
Obviously, if they didn't invent them, yet are making them, without credit or profit to the inventor, IT IS THE SAME THING! C. Loubard |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27306 Posts
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Perhaps those vendors are the assigned delegates given permission by the inventors?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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C. Loubard Special user 615 Posts
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Jonathan, very true, I agree 100%.
If that is the case, however, we are right back where we started. Why is someone tipping a way to make the stuff on "Howie Diddits", instead of buying the original item? |
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Acecardician Inner circle New Orleans 1391 Posts
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Remember: David Ginn had Jumbo snake wands come out of a can or something. I saw this performed once about 20 years ago and loved it. If he does not make it anymore or I cannot get one, Can I make one?
Answer: I think I should write for his permission. Does anyone know where I can get one or has one for sale? I already have Barry's, and it does not hold a candle to it, I never even used it. What about the Paul Curry's "linked" which is re-created with a very expensive box? Did the new creator get permission? I don't know. I wrote him and asked, and he never answered me. Can I contract a carpenter to make one for me? And the Square knot can be bought for $2.50 from a popular magic dealer. Now it is out(improved for about %35.00.) Still no answer. I just inherited 5 boxes of old magic from my mentor. Can I improve some of these and market them as improvements? I like the answer someone gave above, because I am not known, I will get fussed at. If I was famous, then I would be pat on the back. In real life, I don't care to bother, I do over 300 shows a year, and have better things to do with my time off. And since I am working, I can afford to buy originals, or whatever I want. I just question the originality of a couple of the above effects. ACE
My Chinese Stick Collection: https://app.photobucket.com/u/ChineseSticks?sort=6
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Bob Sanders 1945 - 2024 Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts
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A topic related to this a while back is:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=44 Perhaps merging these some way would help. Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-20 22:53, Bob Kohler wrote: I don't disagree with this Bob, but I think you've left out the concept of public domain. Things which fall outside even the conceptual copyright concept. Now I know that a lot of magic concepts can not be legaly copyrighted, but I find that if you apply the concept of copyright/pattent to magic concepts, as though it were possible. You get a pretty good guideline. A fine example would be a product which has existed long enough that, were it patentable/copyrightable, said patent/copyright would have long since expired. I do not feel the slightest twinge of guilt creating, using, or marketing a product which falls very comfortably into this catagory, nor do I feel anyone else should either. Example, Svengalli. The Svengalli goes back to the Victorian erra, perhaps farther. Svengalli routines can be found in works of literature from that period. There is no copyright or patent which would cover something from that far back. Therefor I do not feel the slightest bit compelled to pay anyone for any routine I find in such a work. Nor do I feel the least bit bad about making and selling my own Svengalli decks. I wouldn't, on the other hand, feel right about using, printing, or selling a Svengalli routine which I had no evidence was anything but original to a modern artist. |
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Bob Sanders 1945 - 2024 Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts
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We don't disagree. It is still the duty of the holder of rights to intellectual property to prove his claim to the rights. Documentation is a normally accepted method. However, documentation that the use existed prior to the lifetime of the current claimer is deadly! Life plus 70 years is about as good as it gets for claiming any rights. (That happened due to the good works of Sonny Bono in Congress. Even that is relatively new.)
A different application of a known work is hard to defend as violations of a property right. Otherwise, jet flight, binary coded hexadecimal and calling cattle would still be the exclusive rights of certain Australians. Dove and silk magic would only be available in the Far East. Production of bottles of wine would be European only. Much of the magic done today predates Marco Polo. Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27306 Posts
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Bob, there seems to be some base level conflict over the notion of IP in magicdom. The very idea of IP in magic sits between some pairs of opposing interests; commerce vs individual artistic expression. And also between the sense of clever some have in figuring things out vs the feeling of "do as you please" novices might get when first exposed to the arts.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-01-21 17:54, Bob Sanders wrote: I only disagree with this on the issue of defense. There are no laws defending IP in the US today. As such, people realy have no options at their disposal. As such, I feel ethicly bound, and think it is a good guideline as well, to do a minimal ammount of research before I use IP in what might be a questionable manner, eg. selling/marketing. It's pretty simple, if you can't find any public domaiam material on a subject, then perhaps it would be best to assume that it is original to the source where you encountered it. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27306 Posts
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Drew, there are plenty of things in magic which are NOT public domain yet very well know and treated as PRIVATE and NOT FOR COPYING.
Consider Michael Weber's ring and crackerjack box trick. Or his hungry dollar bill.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Bob Sanders 1945 - 2024 Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts
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I agree that to knowingly take another's creation without permission or compensation is simply wrong. Unfortuantely, we also have too many who claim they invented air and water. They certainly don't deserve any protection. We need a fair balance. How do you achieve that?
Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27306 Posts
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If we start by not buying from those who have taken and who claim a right to take, we are doing something useful. From there, given that some are willing to sell what they take... it might be useful to stay away from them. After all, what's fame worth in a den of copyists, and what possible artistic or personal merrit could one claim for any item in a market full of stolen goods?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Bob Sanders 1945 - 2024 Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts
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The ones who really wind my clock are the ones who claim to have invented tricks that are hundreds of years old.
Protecting someone's routine or truly new invention is logical. Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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JesterMan Veteran user Maryland, USA 319 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-21 14:40, chosengeneration wrote:Brian, The answer to the specific question at the start is right here. If his effect is what inspired you (in other words, that is where you got the idea), and you plan on using it in the same way, then, ethically, IMHO you really should buy his. Thanks for starting the topic. While some arguments went a bit outside the lines, some very good points were made.
JM
 
Balloons, Magic, Mayhem & More! www.AArdvarkEntertainers.com www.JesterMan.com "... destined to take the place of the MudShark in your mythology... " FZ |
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Posted: Jan 3, 2007 07:56 pm 
