I mentioned a partial list, but I will try to lets what he purchased. In some cases the prop will not have anything to do with the trick, as the prop can do multiple tricks.

Die Box
Silk Cabby
Jap Box
Multiplying Bottles
Mutilated Parasol
Canary Cage
Lion and Cobra
Cage Transformation
Cube On Release
Hathaway Handkerchief Cabinet
Miracle Milk Pitcher
Pogo Ball
Hole In One
Imagin O
Flower Surprise
Far East Silk Cabinet
Silks Between
Tri Fly Silk
Flexible Glass
Sword Thru Neck
L-I-N-K-S
Nest Of Boxes
Super Duper Balloon
Blendo Square
Instanto Rope
Convincing Rope Trick
Casket of Pandora
Vanishing Bird Cage
Haunted Candle
Silk Through Mirror
My Lady Steps Out
Chair Suspension
Jet set Backdrop 8 foot X 2

Well that should get you guys started, all are Abbott's brand magic, except the Silk through Mirror.

Hi Bill,
First and foremost no one should never do that many effects together in a single show. Just because he has them not all of them should be used in one show. There are enough effects your friend owns to build several very good shows with a couple of solid 15 min acts thrown in addition to at least three different full shows. Which is a good thing. Now that said many of the above effects could be combined together to form a new presentation in one part of the shows routine.

Let me explain many years back I did a number with two Egyptian Water Boxes where water was poured into one box after both were shown empty then one glass would appear and then disappear then reappear on the other side of the stage in the second water box. While there more to the routine that that which I give as the short version I think you get the idea. The same thing can be done with some of the props mentioned above.
Example which will require a bit of creative thinking would be combining the silk box and the silk Cabby with the Far East Silk Cabinet To craft a routine where in the silks jump around and change places. While this may not be the best example from me taking a quick look at the long list you should get the idea. The silk at the very end could pass through the mirror then return mysteriously to the original box where it started or a rope could slowly emerge from the silk there by leading the viewers on a journey with one red silk handkerchief. Then the rope could be used with the red hank then the hank is vanished to reappear later in the show at some unexpected point.

While that's a bit long to write the point is if using a number of large props in a single show have a single item that can be used to tie the whole show together as one coherent thought.

Now let me speak for a moment about the amount of stuff I used to haul around back when I worked as a FH in my charlatan days. I carried my own tent, chairs, canes, stage, lights, sound etc....That’s way too much stuff to haul even with a crew. Now your friend may be on to something when he said if he only spent a few dollars he could only charge a few dollars for the show. However I think he misunderstood the statement about paying your dues. While he did buy enough props to put on a show or THREE and a couple of short acts he will have to work really hard learning how to use it all together. I will say this he's show will look nice since all the props are new and image is everything when you want bigger money in the eyes of a client. The only issue I see a problem with is how can one tie a canary cage in with over half of what he bought. I once long ago saw a film of Richiardi doing the canary cage with a couple of other illusions and to this day while I loved the routine he did I still cannot figure out why he used it in the same show as a buzz saw. Something about that has never sat well with me.

Also for the official record I love to collect stuff like he bought but I am a travel light these days kinda guy. But then again I got a few different show packed up some require less stuff than others to pack and carry. One show fits in my shirt pocket and its a full 45 min. That show concept took about 15 years to get right and I still working to get it even smaller while using some of the same key props. I also have a full show that uses nothing and that show cost me a fortune in books to find the right effects for it that fit together. I sure I spent more than 10000 just on books and literature to craft that show.
I lost my train of though but my point is in the forth paragraph. LOL

Your "friend" sure bought a lot of magic without knowing what to do with it.

Ray, I reported your stalking. It is very clear you are not on the Café to help anyone but only to make "bully" remarks on forum topics. Very sad that is all you have to do.

If you had actually read this topic you would not have made such an ill-informed statement.

Oh dear, the bully bullied !!!

Whodathunkit!!

Hey I notice your unwarranted attack on somebody on the magnetised water thread has gone.

Not having a good weekend eh?

Bullying remarks have been removed and somebody has pushed back and made you run to teacher.

What a guy !!!

I'm not going to "quote", verbatim, Ray Chelt's atatement (two posts above) anyone can scroll up easily enough!

But, once again, I find myself defining a few terms and explaining a few concepts.

>>>RAY --and anyone else who may be just be beginning! One of my college professors told us: "Before you begin a discussion, DEFINE YOUR TERMS!" So! Permit me to define a few terms. A very respected member of this Café, told me that what I am about to say TOTALLY CHANGED HIS OUTLOOK ON MAGIC, when I defined these terms in a lecture when he was a young man.

No one can BUY (or "own") MAGIC!!!!!!!!!!!! MAGIC only exists (usually, momentarily) in the MIND(S) OF THE SPECTATOR(S)!!!!!!! If you can "wrap your mind around that statement, you are on the way to being a successful magician.

You CAN BUY (and thereby "own") a PROP or a SECRET. Using that PROP, and/or SECRET, you can PERFORM a TRICK. (A TRICK--like MUSIC--only "exists" while it is being PERFORMED! The magician's SHOWMANSHIP & PRESENTATION is what makes the TRICK ENTERTAINING and not just s PUZZLE. In short, THE PERFORMER IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PROP!

Further: A TRICK is what you PERFORM. An EFFECT, is what the spectator "sees" OR, THINKS that he "sees". You can check that out! Just listen to a spectator describe a TRICK that he has just watched a magician PERFORM. Odds are that the spectator's description will be exaggerated beyond all possibilities.

So, Ray, You are not ALONE! Far too many of the Café's "customers" have only learned how a TRICK is "DONE". If the magicians do not understand these definitions, they, likely will not progress to the point of learning how to DO it. And, learning how to DO it,so that it ENTERTAINS an audience, would likely be a MIRACLE! We mortals aren't known for performing MIRACLES!

Now, back to Bill's friend's "problem"! "You can't make a dill pickle by squirting a little brine on a cucumber~-the brine must soak in!" I've been "into" magic since I was six years old (when I first saw Stanley the Magician). I started performing for money, when I was 13. I'm now 82. I made a living most of my life, performing magic. I AINT NEVER YET MET A 'BORN' MAGICIAN!!!! Sophocles said it a few millenia ago: "One learns by DOING the thing!" --Of course, the learner must prepare himself for DOING, by STUDY, and PRACTICING (in magic, by practicing PRIVATELY).

Another old "wise statement": "There aint no shallow end in this pool! Before you jump in,be sure you know how to swim! (It's not necessry to be an Olympic Gold Medal Swimmer, but, at least be able to "dog paddle"!) I think that Bill's friend jumped in without any idea of being able to swim. It seems to me that he thought that the PROPS would support him! See above! YOU CAN'T BUY MAGIC!!! You can't buy TALENT or SHOWMANSHIP,EITHER.

I have been, many times, asked to "play doctor" or serve as a consultant to a performer. Consultant's fees, are substantially higher than performing fees. I would never consider accepting such a "project" unless I knew that the performer had done his/her "homework"!

I've learned from people like Dai Vernon, et al, not to "suffer fools". I hope I am not too "crusty" by saying that! A number of those whom I have mentored, are now working successful professionals. I won't name them (our relationship was confidential)

Bill's friend should have discussed his plans with Bill BEFORE he spent 5K! I'm certainly not saying that his friend is going to FLOP, but, I think he is facing some MAJOR "CHALLENGES"!

i thank JNeal for his positive comments above. He has encouraged me to write this lengthy post. I think, also, that Bill Hegbli is entitled to a big "thank you", especially from the young fellows, starting out, for "bringing up" this situation for discussion.

Great thoughts Dick.

Thoroughly inspirational...I remember Bill Palmer saying once on here how those thoughts made their mark on even a seasoned pro like him.

Hopefully Bills friend will get this info and use it to his best advantage.

Thank you Ray!

I'm happy that I didn't hurt your feelings (that was definitely not my intentions!)

I just "used" your name because you were "right there"! I do think that it is important to clarify terms!

I didn't learn what I said above "overnight"! BTW>>> see 3rd paragraph above in my post) The well respected magician is Michael BAKER. He was a teenager when I lectured in Birmingham, eons ago! Bill Palmer has also written about such things. Also,BTW, I am STILL LEARNING! (When you are through learning---you're through!)

I am not writing these posts to "show off"!! I was kvetched to "join" this "show" by a magician who said that I should be passing along from experience, a few scraps of wisdom. (such as they are!)

When I was "breaking in" to magic, we still had magicians saying "LO AND BEHOLD", and calling on "the goddess Maja"! I think we've gotten beyond THAT, at least!

Thanks again for your reception of my odds 'n' ends of knowledge!

Best wishes...

Dick

"The performer is always more important than the prop" -- Dick Oslund

Well spoken!

If I can add anything to this, it would be that a great performer knows how to direct focus. He knows when to allow his "Boxes, tubes & bags", his animals, his assistants, his volunteers, and his audience to take the spotlight, because he knows how to gracefully take it back.

Edit: I was writing my post as Dick was posting his, and didn't see it until I had posted mine. Thanks for the nod, sir! The respect goes to you.

Dick's comments once again astound me...for their utter completeness, concise verbiage...and practical value. It should be the foreword to every book on magic. BRAVO!

This topic has certainly taken an unexpected turn. My initial reason for the topic was simply to see how some standard never seen Abbott's apparatus magic tricks could be put into an interesting magical format that would be enjoyable for audiences. Something that simple where many could participate in and offer their suggestions. And maybe someone new to magic would get an idea and be a little different. And at the same time, not simply making it a dealer demo.

I now realize this is not possible, as this is the 4th or 5th time I have tried to stir some conversation on The Café, and all have failed miserably over the years. Adding to this, when I needed help, not one person would offer a suggestion at all to my question. Not even an I don't know. This is just not a sharing bunch of guys, and I totally understand how men are. It is just not the nature of men to discuss anything personal in their lives.

So I have decided to join you all in not sharing. I totally give up, as magic is not a sharing art as say, music. A bunch of musicians can get together and create songs and sounds, laugh and talk. In magic - a bunch of magicians get together and egos and jealousy abounds between them.

Bill, there was a ton of sharing going on here. I don't think it went to far afield. But you didn't bring us back on topic and help narrow what you were looking for specifically. Some posters read into your OP and subsequent posts stuff you didn't say or ask.

You originally asked if anyone has seen or performed a magic show of all props. And wondered since you had not read about such a show that maybe it would be an interesting discussion.

Richard Hughes mentioned an act with a specific table set-up, Syd Lorraine consulting on Prop driven shows, and his own prop heavy (if flowers can be said to be heavy) show. He talked about his own (non assistant) methodology for solving the multiple table problem.

I offered one of the finest prop-driven professional acts I've seen. There the use of an assistant was critical. There was a little discussion about that.

Sure there was some discussion of showmanship and philosophy of magic (in the magician or in the props) but that discussion was most germane to the discussion at hand.

I was looking for video examples of other successful, prop-heavy, full time professional shows. Both in-one and with an assistant. I can only find clips. I was specifically looking for Robert Harbin's various acts (I can only find snippets). Robert was a very heavy user of props. He often was assistant free and still managed to do an entire show with a clutter of tables or props. Ali Bongo is referenced in that his insane comedy act was all visual gags and standard magic props done up Bongo style.

I am pretty much a prop-loving guy. However I don't and wouldn't use an off the shelf Abbott's. All my props are customized for me. OK what do I mean. Take the Multiplying Bottles. I have three Abbott's sets and all have been stripped and repainted and relabeled. I liked the shape of the bottles but didn't like the golden color or the generic labels. My Square Circle is a custom job (and one of a kind - OK one of a few) made for me by Michael Baker. I even have Jay Leslie remaking one of his standard props to my "look".

If what you really want is a discussion of how to routine a number of props together for ease of work and some "logical" sequence to the act then just say so. MentalistCreationLab took some of the props from your list and tried to give you a taste.

I see a lot of sharing going on in this thread. I am sorry it is not what you specifically want or are looking for. Help us out here. How are we missing?

I think the Magic Café' works most effectively when very specific questions are asked and addressed ie; who make this? , what is the best version of that?, Is there a substitute or work-around for this?, etc;

I suspect it works less effectively when trying to routine an act in the abstract. It becomes exponentially more difficult when the list of options is so very long and the personality and skills of the performer are not known. I am sorry I (we) failed to meet your expectations, but I don't think egos or jealousy were factors.

I started in magic, with pride in being a "box magician" and never, never, never was into card manipulation of tricks -- unless forced into it by a startling effect IF it fit into my act.

Now at 72 years of age I can still say that my manipulation skills start and stop with the Electric Deck in cards, and a few gaffed things -- but my shows (about 45 minutes for corporate venues) were all box, silk and flower magic. BUT IT TOOK HOURS TO SET-U AND KNOCK DOWN. And, each act and each segment had to flow, not scatter props all over the stage and allow for thematic segments that would weave stories together to include a number of tricks that went to the theme.

I never used any livestock -- except for a rubber canary, a silly hilarious spring duck from Abbotts (they no longer make) and a skunk version of Rocky the Raccoon. I have seen too big of feed bills and poop problems occur too many times. And no one hollers about a silk crammed into a small space, properly folded waiting to pop into being, or the magician maiming himself of putting an audience member in a funny (but not mocking) dangerous position.

The problem with the do not look like this You Tube piece is that the performer seems to have never thematically thought through a plot or rationale for following one bird gimmick u-on another, at least without some solid punctuational applause points built in. At times, too, the previously produced livestock was drawing focus away from his actions -- when it could have been expected and woven into the texture of the act.

I never could find a reliable assistant willing to work spotty hours and travel, so I was a one man show, hgauloing props, illusions, sound, lights and early Kerry Polack product for show controlled sound and lights un,ess union or venue required me to use their lights and sound. And when mistakes were made -- I could blame no one but myself -- and if a routine did not work smoothly I copould re-write, change props and presentation between shows.

I tried to emulate (and still have most of the hats) a magician I saw in New York as a kid, He themed his tricks by using hates instead of full costumes, changing his voice and characteristics to the sometimes politically incorrect character designated by the hat... but always with the purpose of the magic routine. A pith helmet, Chinese Coolie cap, a mountie or smokey the bear hat could bring about a new slant on a trick, and, at times, be used as props to bring in audience members into the act as assistants, (I used a lot of glitzy turbans and a gong to dress up a blade box trick devised by Harbin and McComb -- with the woile routine now being in Uncle Harry's Murphy's hands, since I have been worn out by being on the road with so much box magic and illusion.

So, and interesting approach to managing a show came together with several principles:

1. Do not produce anything big, prettyopr glitzy without stopping and getting applause -- AND see if you can use it to tastefully decorate the stage without detracting from the rest of the act. (Hint - Abbott's Jet Sets and Velcro make for a wonderful display of 6' silks.)

2. For a finish -- do something that shows you have put all the energy you have into entertaining your audience -- but because they were so great you can do one thing more that is emotionally hooking -- like Judy Garland sitting on the edge of a stage in a spotlight and singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." or something like the Kevin James wonderful story for Snow.

3. NEVER, NEVER turn your back on the audience in managing your props. This can be a challenge -- but can be done. You need to rehearse WHERE props go so you do not walk into them as you walk backwards. Sometimes you may need to break this rule and go out of sight of the audience -- but it should be motivated by a reason -- like going off to get a fire extinguisher when a shoe burns and smokes on stage -- coming back on with a fire siren and light attached to your extinguisher and wearing a fire hat -- making this second or two off stage your opportunity for a second entrance with meaning.

If you do use props that should go out of sight after use -- get a couple of good ditch locations built in to your act. At one time I invested in some Oriental looking trunks and kept them open stage left and right and stage forward so I could move to them never turning my back. With the lids up, I could drape produced silks and garlands over the lid to keep jot in audience view. Again, be aware of WHAT clutter goes where so it does not detract.

Watch some good shows in person and see how they are constructed to allow for prop movement. A simple show might see an illusion done stage center that was pre-set before the show and lets the curtain open to it -- and then some smaller props wheeled on the apron after the curtain closes to permit the next illusion to be moved in place as the magician does what I dub freon of the curtain magic, like multiplying bottle routines, jumbo B-Wave or Linking Rings. Then the curtain can open on the best big thing.

There is no reason that with some thought tables cannot be arranged to accommodate this. And, if it looks too cluttered, remember black cloth to cover something until it needs to be revealed -- even if sitting in front of the audience on a table top for 30 minutes before it come into play, is a good way a both decluttering and building mystery of "what the heck is under there for his next miracle."

Then there was one of the best pieces of advice I ever got from Jim Riser (of the cups fame) -- ALWAYS, ALWAYS expect to change the trick, box, illusion or whatever you get, not just to make it work for you, but to fit your personality, routine or purpose. Each "trick" should be a part of a larger routine -- and store-bought stuff is rarely perfect for your use. A magician who learns to be a craftsman in decorating and modifying stock stuff for their show may fail a few times -- but inevitably ends up with a satisfactory show and range of formerly stock tricks that not only work -- but enthralls an audience and various levels -- and that jus what we get paid for.

So, if you just wanna buy something and show off, go ahead. But if you want to make magic a life, be prepared to learn a lot of new stuff and develop new skills in painting, decoration. smoothing squeaking hinges and the like to become a satisfied professional performer -- even with a lot of boxes to carry.

Gregg I was hoping you'd show up. I only have one segment of your longer show in my collection (your amazing and unique routine for the Magician's Revenge). You ought to put a segment or three of your traveling stage show up for all to enjoy and to understand how big one man show you actually had in the day.

Bill, for what it's worth, please don't feel any discontent regarding this thread. I agree, it has probably gone in a much different direction than you intended, but I've looked forward to coming back to this topic more than any other on the Café since you've posted it. I've stated here many times that I don't perform professionally, or really as an amateur with any regularity. I'm a lover of the art of magic first, a collector second, and probably a performer third...for friends and family. So, I have nothing of legitimate value to offer, other than to say I appreciate the many insights, suggestions, and wisdom that is being shared here.

Granted Bill, you've yet to receive a satisfactory solution to your original quandary, but still, you've obviously opened some passionate flood gates.

My love of magic started as a child watching Marshall Brodien's famous TV Magic Cards commercial. But the nail in the coffin sealing my fate in loving magic for the rest of my life, was seeing a magician in the basement of a church. I can't remember his name or the location exactly, and it really doesn't matter. But prior to his appearance on the intimate stage he had several tables, each adorned with small boxes, silks, ropes, and tubes...objects and paraphernalia that intrigued me and challenged my imagination. When he came on and performed, I watched him carefully demonstrate each prop and was enthralled and amazed. But when he was done with every effect, I knew there was more...because I saw more. And that made me happy.

In the end, for me, it wasn't about the stuff. It was about the anticipation. The anticipation that my amazement wasn't over.

After that show I went to the library and took out "Greater Magic," and found myself in my father's workshop beginning to learn how to build my own props. Well enough I suppose, that years later when I needed spending money in high school, I took my boxes, silks, ropes, and tubes to Joe Lefler's magic shop in the old Richmond Mall in Richmond Heights, Ohio. Joe, to my surprise bought them. That was magical. And my amazement had just begun.

Ditto x 10

This has been a thoroughly interesting and enlightening thread...thanks to all.

Good to hear your back story, Oz!

I've been following this thread a couple of days and it just struck me that, IMHO, something is missing.

As a couple of you already said, the prop is not all that important. I went through the prop phase, and then defected to the cards-and-doves phase, and eventually learned how to really listen to what people were saying to me, or about me. What became very noticeable, as time went on, was that people thought I was coming across far more "like a magician" with the cards-and-doves act than with the props. IOW, I was the one doing the magic, not the props.

Now, before a couple of you jump in...

I started out with props just like (probably) most of us, buying the tricks and following the instructions. I didn't know any better: I was new at magic and didn't know squatola about showmanship, presentation, and so forth. It was only years later that I began to learn all this, at about the same time I defected to the birds. So, for me, it all happened about the same time. I don't have a clue what would have happened if I had learned about showmanship and such, and stuck with the props. But the concept of "coming across like a magician" did stick with me, and it still comes up every time I see a magic act that uses props: "Is the guy doing the magic, or are the props doing the magic?" I have seen both ends of the spectrum and probably everything in between. This is especially true for a lot of guys doing illusions.

So, my answer to the OP's question, "If one went to say Abbott's Magic and paid thousands of dollars on props like the Canary Cage, how would these best be presented in a show context?" would be to focus on coming across like a magician first -- to develop a character and a style that people will like -- and then use the props as the material (like a singer would use a song) with which to prove you're a magician. Everything else -- bringing the props on or having a gazillion tables on stage, having an assistant bring them on, ditching them in trunks around the stage, and so forth -- is just a factor of the character and style. Put the horse in front of the cart and let the dog wag the tail.

George, you just hit on something. I have been having a private discussion with another magician regarding this, and I think we could conclude something similar. In my case, I began in magic with a desire to be a stage guy with all the stuff on stage. I turned to close-up simply to make a living at this, but later found reason to shift back to the boxes, tubes and bags. Strangely enough, I think I have as much ability to entertain an audience with my props, as I did with cards, coins and all that fits neatly into pockets and requires no reset.

I would imagine that if you designed a show today with a serious array of boxes and such, that you'd surprise yourself at how "magical" you might find that act to be. I highly doubt that you would revert back to performing those kinds of tricks the same way you did it when you were younger. That has certainly been true for me.