I am interested to find out what the general opinion is on the use of lay judges is among the group.

Do you feel they are a good or a bad thing and how should they be chosen, what skills and experiance should they have?

How do you feel about using comedians or theatrical experts instead?

I think lay judges should be used. When you do your magic for the most part it is for lay people not for magicians. So that being said have one or two magician judges and the rest be lay people. The lay people should only have the skill of judgeing your perfomence and not you skill. That should be left to the magician judges.

I love lay judges! They are so EASY to amaze... but that's my opinion. I think judges should be some type of celebrity (radio/tv/ect) and they have to have NO previous experiences with any of the competitors

I am not so sure about them I think they sometimes are too easily amazed I think that it may make a more interesting competition if there were judges who understood comedy and theatre etc.

Remember Stephen you are performing for lay people that is who you do magic for. How often has a magician called you and said hey can you do my kids birthday or can you do close up for my coctail party. I would say never.


Tom

If you are judged by laymen you are booking a lot of shows.
If you are judged by other magicians you are in a magic competition.
Dancers judge dancing competitions, Ice skaters judge Ice skating and Magicians should judge magic.

I understand all of that and I agree but some competitions are not about that there is a place to judge skill and entertainment and I still see the lay judges often screwing up the voting and it makes me wonder if the system works

That is exactly what I am saying. A lay person should never be allowed to judge a magic competition. If we want our competitions professional we need to get professional judges.

My Ideal Judge team would be:

1.- Theater Director
2.- Choreographer
3.- Actor/Actress
4.- Historian magician
5.- reknowed magician in the field (close-up or stage)


of 5, 3 lay people but who are deeply involved with the show business.

When that day arrives, I'll be in every Magic Competition.

Bye!!

See now your talking my language and this was exactly my point glad I am not the only one who thinks this way

I've been fortunate to have been a judge for several competitions. I think it depends on the venue and personally think a combination of both is good, although I must admit that laypeople have a different viewpoint of a performance than that of fellow magicians. They may rate a performance highly compared to those in the know of rather simple effects, unlike perhaps someone else that performs really difficult ones.

So what does that say? It means yes, they are fooled more readily but they are basing it on performance more than technique.

I still feel that lay people should not be allowed to judge competitions because of the fact that they do not understand the technical aspects behind the execution.
If that was the case David cooperfield would walk thru the great wall of china and win everything because thee"presentation" is so great while someone like Ortiz would do card miracles but not win because it is not that huge.
Can you imagine putting Jeff McBride on stage with a 8 minute manipulation routine only to lose to a Copperfield with an illusion because it looks more impressive? or the choreography is better? or it is more theatrical?
I do not consider them of any value if competitions are judged by lay people.
I mentioned Ice skating before and the more difficult the choreography the higher possible marks can be scored. The same with dancing and diving and many other things.
We need to compete on that level or not at all.

ABC I think you appreciate the point I was trying to make with this thread. It is not about hey you perform to lay people it is about moving the standard up beyond the point where lay people can tell the diference.

I like the Ice scate analogy how does the avearage punter tell the difference between say John Curry and Robin cousins (sorry if that's out of date don't really follow ice skating) the difference at the top levels is almost inperceptable to the lay eye.

For instance a magician vanishes a coin using a coin unique vs a magician performs a great retention vanish who wins the coin unique looks like a miricle but my 8 year old can do it as well as any

I think lay people who have experience in show buisness should judge a magic competition because they understand what tricks would be successful in front of a normal audience of lay people. We have to remember that in magic it is not so much about what you do, it about what your audience thinks you do. While it is true that one magician may do a coin vanish that took years of practice and another may do a very simple one the better trick is the one that is the most entertaining and magical. I also think that closeup, parlor, and large illusions should be in seperate categories. A card trick should not be in competition with an illusion (unless it is a stage trick like the card sword), it should be in competion with other closeup tricks.

I think the use of lay judges should depend on what type of contest it is.
If you want to find the best *technically* sound performer, then lay people have no business judging.
If you are trying to find the best over-all magical entertainer, then lay people are of tremendous value as judges.
Remember, too, that any panel will be given criteria by which to judge contestants. Choosing the criteria carefully is essential to a fair contest.