I hope this is an appropriate place to tell this story, and ask this question.
I have never worked through an agency or referrals from other magicians, so I am clueless about this.

So, Here is the story:

There are very few magicians in my area. A fellow local magician contacted me about an event. He had over booked himself, and would not be able to work this particular one day festival. He asked if I would be interested. After I said yes, contacted the event coordinator, and told her that he would not be able to be there, but he had found a replacement. He gave her my contact information, and then told me that she would be contacting me. His exact words were "Once she calls you, it is between you and her, and I am out of it. You can give me whatever finders fee you feel is appropriate".

After speaking with the event coordinator, she was only willing to pay what she had agreed to pay the other magician. I accepted the gig.

I did not know what was an appropriate amount, so I asked the only other local magician I know that actually performs frequently. This other magician initially said "He (the referring magician) over-booked himself! You are saving his reputation by doing the gig. I wouldn't pay him much, if anything". I told him that I wanted to pay him something, but didn't know what was appropriate. He advised me that the agencies that he has worked with, in the past, took 5% - 10%, but most took 5%.

Now, after the event is over, and I've been paid, I texted the referring magician for his mailing address. He sent me his mailing address, and a message that said I was now at the top of his list for referrals.

I thanked him and said "I will have a 5% finders fee check in the mail to you, tomorrow, if that is sufficient. If that is not sufficient, let me know".

His response was simply "whatever".

Since I am unfamiliar with referral fees, I texted back, advising him that I didn't exactly know what was appropriate, and I valued his friendship and professional relationship. I said "If this is not appropriate, please let me know".

He has not responded back to me.

I was hoping that someone, here, could tell me what percentage you guys pay for referral fees or agencies! I certainly didn't want to "low ball" the guy! I was just going off of what one other local had told me was average.

Hope some of y'all can chime in and give me some advice!

He is wrong for not setting expectations for this relationship in the beginning. If he wants 10% that is his job to communicate this to you. Not your job to mind read.

This is just a ton of magicians BS. This is a combination of magician's nonsense and the terrible problems of poor magician's business operations.

First, quit asking other magicians as, as you can see, they are terrible business people and it is just the blind leading the blind. So you are asking others that don't have a clue. Secondly, let me separate some opinons from fact. I've owned 6 entertainment agencies as was a one-time president of an ageney's association, and no real agency would only take 5-10%. Standard is 20. While there may be some old-timers that still take only 15%, the industry standard is 20-25%. Now I understand he is not an agent and this is not an agency transaction, but use it as a guideline.

As far as referrals anything less that 20% is an insult.

Now as the magician you asked said "he overbooked himself, and you are saving him." This too is a lot of magician's thinking. Really all of this is. Only non-valued magicians would ever operate this way in the first place. Of course the client was only willing to pay what she originally discussed with the guy who gave you the referral. Also you made a mistake by telling the client about a referral fee (if you did) or trying to get more money. When you accepted the gig you were told the pay rate from the original magician and any "referral fee" would come out of your earnings.

If you pay him a decent amount he will likely refer you more, if you like this kind of arrangement. Remember when a magician usually can't do a show due to being overbooked, he is keeping the best show for himself and giving away the less desirable show. So just know when you accept these type of "referrals" that the referral fee is coming out of your cut, and expect less than optimal performing dynamics and conditions.

All of this should have been laid out and established upfront, so both parties knew exactly the rate, referral free, and performance instructions. Also this is not good client relations or customer service when a magician accepts a booking, then has to be "replaced" by another unknown magician (no offense to you.)

Now let's take this a step further...say the client likes what you've done and wants to rebook you again for a future event. Is the gig yours, or the original magician's? If it is yours do you owe him more for the second or additional bookings?

Any referral fee or commission needs to be at least 20%. 15% is better than nothing but to me it still says you are cheap and unappreciative. As far as you doing him a favor, that is not how to be looking at it. He would simply go on to the next magician if you didn't accept it.

Understand this for what it is. You are smart for asking. Perhaps you should have asked here before accepting the booking?

Mike, 5% is hardly worth getting out of bed for, but he (and you) shouldn't have left this ambiguous.

If you can get back in touch with him, you may want to be more clear about the terms of your
arrangement, networking with other local entertainers can be a good source of bookings,
not just other magicians but clowns, balloon sculptors, singers, bounce house renters,
dance troops etc.

If you are booked often enough on specific days, passing bookings on to him is another way of having
the deal be mutually beneficial, sometimes this networking arrangement doesn't call for a fee, but
when it does make sure it is clear, and once again 5% is hardly worth the trouble if there isn't
other benefits.

Let me start by saying that I'm a little floored by 15% not being the standard any more. That's what I've been told time and time again, and it's what I've always given in the past. Now I feel like a real cheapskate, but I would have HAPPILY given 20 if I knew that was the standard!

Ok, moving on...

I've been struggling with a way to handle this type of situation myself.

I get a few leads per month thru a very specific source that I personally cannot take- due to a potential issue of a "conflict of interests"

I've farmed out many of these over the past several months to some of the local pros in the area that I know.

So far, no one has kicked back a finders fee to the organization from which these leads came.

I've always thought was an appropriate gesture to send along a finders fee as thanks when someone else found you a paying gig...

I know that not all of these leads pan out, but I also know for a fact that some of them *DO* pan out.

I've begun to not offer them to the magicians who I know have gotten gigs from these, but have not sent us a finders fee as a gesture of appreciation, but should I also mention this to the performers, or should I just silently cross them off my list.

These fees were never discussed in advance & I just assumed they were SOP. I guess that's what I get for assuming that people would voluntarily start cutting checks for others...


I appreciate mindpro's no nonsense, business positive stance on the idea of FFs, but as a not-at-all full time professional, they've always seemed kinda nebulous and loosey-goosey to me.

I'm not an agency but I do book out other performers several times a year. The way I do it is this:

- If I'm simply referring the client to a new performer, it's 10% from the rate the magician books it for
- If I'm presenting a specific performer, and doing the contracting, I take 20% off whatever the performer charges. Depending on the situation I try to just give them an awesome option to cut down on presenting multiple people.
- If I'm pooling together multiple options, dates, or line up of performers, I try to charge what would be 20% on top of what ultimately book it for. Or, if they give me a flat budget I try to take 20% off that flat budget. OR, if I'm performing too, and finding other smaller local guys, I take my standard fee, pay them extra on top of their fee, and then pocket the rest. Funny enough the amount I pocket is usually at just about 20%.

My goal is for me, the client, and the performer to all be happy. Having a system in place for this is a good thing to do because you don't want anyone feeling scammed. Occasionally this can all move without much communication about it, but you do need to be transparent enough if people ask or there's confusion.

That other performer you spoke to doesn't really have a good attitude about this. Just because he double-booked himself doesn't mean you're "saving him". He's giving you a gig you didn't have to market yourself for and has established a sense of working trust. I'd send 10% if you did a lot of the booking legwork. If he was doing contracting and logistics then send 20%

I've had another performer take about a 40% finders fee, which I found excessive. I still find it excessive. But, I've tried not to let it harm the relationship because they're usually really good clients and opportunities, and aside from that he's still good to do business with and have as a friend.

I had a friend who has a set of great clients but always charges in excess of what he actually pays performers. And, is poor in communication and planning, and often cancels gigs. And, he acts like he's the king of some empire and like everyone owes him something. Therefore, I had to learn to stop doing business with him and try to treat him just as a friend. Needless to say, this attitude spilled over into other areas and we don't speak much anymore other than light pleasantries. And that is just dandy at this point

I have been waiting to comment on the disturbing business practice that is probably at play here. I bet a $1,000 mindpro was biting his tongue as well.

"Double booking" yourself in this day and age is just either really stupid or nefarious and almost nothing in between. What has most likely happened is that he booked a gig and took a set a fee and then a better fee came along for the same time so he took that and passed the turd of a fee along to the OP. (With all the computer software double booking after you have gotten to when you are sending contracts is just not going to happen.) Agency work is one thing. But to sell yourself knowing you will not be there is not cool.

I know I know a lot of guys do this and think it is clever and what not. Lots think it makes great business sense to do such a thing. Heck I have seen courses that specifically tell you to do things like this. I just would not do it that way if it was me. It is no way to treat a client.

By the way when you have double booked yourself yea the guy you are passing this along to IS saving your reputation. It is that simple. Maybe that is not as important to some as to others. I have no idea.

Gaddy in your area the 15% may very well be the standard that is agreed upon by those working at that level. There is nothing saying you are a cheapskate!

Fedora you say 5% isn't worth getting out of bed for? You have been watching too much Shark Tank. 5% of what exactly? The percentage is meaningless without knowing the number it is attached to. Heck the guy backed out as soon as the two were connected. We have NO IDEA what he put into getting the gig in the first place. Without knowing all that there is no way to say if it is good or bad. All that can be said with certainty is that it should have been clarified up front.

Also the guy responded in text form. There is NO WAY of knowing if "whatever" meant "whatever that sucks" or "Hey man whatever is good". He could just be busy or any number of a thousand other things. To just assume "whatever" is automatically bad is not sensible. The guy obviously didn't really care too much about it or he would have been clear.

SO MUCH goes into what an agency takes. How much they provide for you and how they get the work. No agency I know of could operate on 15% today. But it depends on a thousand variables. It comes to the business model they are using. But as Mindpro said 20%-25% is pretty standard. I have worked with agencies that have just offered a fee. You have NO IDEA what percentage they are or are not getting. If the fee is good you take it. If you find out they are taking 30% and you don't like that and don't want to do the work any more just don't say yes. Someone else will.

Again as in my first post, clarify up front.

In this deal that guy is lucky he got anything, he could have gotten stiffed completely.

Going forward, unless they are sending each other work, 5% is not worth the time, it does not matter the value.

Even if it was $1000, 5% of $1000 would only be $50, if he did not put much work or money in getting this gig, going forward this is still not an amount that is worth sending a client to him for. (at least on its own)

One time I double booked myself and got another magician to take the gig. Not only did I NOT expect any fee, I paid the magician out of my pocket! I screwed up! To make it up to my customer I wanted to give them a free show.

The opposite has happed in which I filled in for a magician that over booked, and its not a very comfortable situation. Its like your entering hostile territory. The customer may still be angry. In her eyes you are a second-rate magician.

I would have texted the magician to say there will be no finders fee because I couldn’t get near my regular fee, but I’m very happy I could help you out in this difficult situation (that YOU created).

As far as finders’ fees on a broader scale, whatever percentage two adults agree on is appropriate.

Yeah I didn't want to get into it but since you mentioned it...I have booked over 10,000 bookings over the years for myself and my agencies and I have never "overbooked" or "doublebooked." The whole idea and premise doesn't make sense.

When a call comes in either you are available or you are not. Period. The ideas of "maybe I can find a way to handle both of these bookings" is just crazy and definitely magician's thinking.

It does seem to be most prominent in kids parties/magicians, but it still doesn't make sense. When someone books you they are trusting their event (including the times they've contract you for) to you and expect a professional on all levels. A professional would never "overbook." Airlines do this, rental car places do this, but does live entertainers with a personal relationship with their clients.

Then their is the whole idea that magicians are just interchangeable commodities. Then on top of that that the client will have no problem with the practice of "oh I can find another magician to handle it for you," like you are providing some kind of a "service" to them after YOU screwed up.

This is just yet another example of terrible business practices from magicians and definitely another example of "me-based" thinking and operations. But what still amazes me, after all these years, is that the magician STILL doesn't get this and doesn't see anything wrong with this practice! You don't see this with any other type of performer.

As I said earlier these are quite less than optimal bookings, the client, regardless of what the first magician tells you, is always perturbed and disappointed and takes it our on you, and as Ken said sees you as a second rate magician.

Then back to the OPs original post when the first magician said ""Once she calls you, it is between you and her, and I am out of it" is such a BS move in and of itself.

In reality the answer is quite simple. When you get a call and you are booked you say "sorry, I would love to do your event but I am already booked." This is simple, what's the problem? Really, how tough is that? Look at all of the benefits that also come along with that. First is sending the message that "I am in demand and you must book early to get your date and time," It creates a scarcity and call to action. It also sends the message that "the good performers are booked early and well in advance." You can also state that next time please call me earlier as I would still live to work with you" laying the groundwork for a future booking.

Also, look what this does for building a relationship with them. They see you operating professionally, while educating them on the best way to book entertainment for the optimal results. All of this positions you in a much better light than what you are creating by just taking the booking and creating the problematic situation.

It also shows your lack of respect and responsibility for their event. This is exactly what I was starting to get to in the Responsibility thread I started a few threads down. Then on top of all of this it de-values you as a performer/magician. Why would you want to create such a situation and present and bring so many negatives into the situation??? It just doesn't make sense.

I get grief on here from time to time saying I'm tough on kids magicians, or I don't like kids magicians, or I seem to act down towards them. I always try to explain that their entire me-based thinking and operations, lack of continued entertainment business education, and overall lack of professionalism is always so present in all facets of what they do. All they are interested in is just the "tricks" they do. Heck, many do not even "perform" or have a "show, they just execute a string of magic tricks and get he kids screaming and yelling, and yet THINK they are entertainers. It is so crazy, and this is just one of the examples of this. Yet it still happens on a daily basis and is ACCEPTABLE to these kids magicians!

Even in the case of unexpected changes such as you had two bookings booked with 90 minutes in between events, then the first booking calls and wants to bump the times to one hour later (which then would create the overlap in bookings) which then runs into the second event. The answer again is simple... "No, I'm sorry but I have another booking already scheduled, I can only perform for the hours we had discussed and that are in the agreement/contract." Boom! Done. This is also why you need a contract and deposit as this is muuuuch less likely to occur when they risk losing their money. They will often try to work around you at that point. You can even make suggestions as such. There are better ways to serve this customer.

Do you see how everything is interspersed in business? One thing affects the other and one improper move like this creates a whole perception against you, as well as the second magician, as well as your entire business/company and operations, and in the much larger picture they see it as all magicians operate like this and it DOES cause residual damage to the community and industry.

This is just one reason kids magicians have the image, perception, and reputation they have within the community as well as to the public, yet can't understand why and thinks everyone else is against them. This is the exact kind of thing that happens when you operate half-a**ed and unprofessionally by industry standards, not yours.

Now I know some here will say I have worked this way and never had a problem. To that I say you're lucky if that is the case, but I am more willing to believe that their were problems that you are/were unaware of that you didn't see. This still doesn't make it an acceptable practice or right.

If you have to rely on other magicians or this type of booking arrangement to get dates on your calendar, you need to do some work and raise your standards.

Also, it is not about he money, percent or dollars in the referral, it is about the practice.

Magic4jc,

Sounds to me like apples and oranges are being all mixed up here. Don’t let it confuse you. Among most magicians, a ‘finders fee’ and ‘agency’ fee are not viewed as the same. Not even close. I’m sure you’re 5 or 10 percent will be fine. I wouldn’t take the ‘whatever’ comment the wrong way.

Tom

I want to clarify one point. If they call and you are booked and you tell them that but offer to give them information of another performer who may not be booked this is ok. (By the way to further clarify this is truly a finders fee situation. But I digress.) The difference is in the honesty. Telling them up front prior to booking sets expectation properly. Now you can go through whatever process you want. You can find the person or they can, but they know the deal.

The thing this does is as a Mindoro said is encourages them to think you are just interchangeable. As if there is no difference in your and 100 other guys. Why would you want to encourage this perception with those who are trying to book you? It’s basic economics. The more of a specific thing there are, the less valuable each individual thing becomes. If you are hard to book raise your prices until an equilibrium exists between your price and your availability. But the more you show people how easy it is to replace you the less you actually show your own value.

Every single thing you do when you relate to a client shows them your value. Your price has little to do with it.

Let me first say "Thank You" for all of the VERY PASSIONATE responses.

I would like to clear a few things up, and then tell you how all this turned out.

1. I am not a full time performer. I have a regular job, and magic is something that I do on a part time basis. That being said, I tend to have enough magic gigs to keep me sufficiently busy on my days off.
2. Although I only do magic part time, it is MY Life goal to give 100% to anything I do! I try to be the best performer I can be, and operate as professionally as I can. I usually handle my own bookings, as a part timer, so I did not know how referrals worked.
3. The original magician was not involved in the contracting, other than the fact that his rate is what the event coordinator was willing to pay. All other logistics were worked out between event coordinator and myself.
4. The event coordinator knew nothing of a referral fee or finders fee. She only knew that the person she originally booked was not available, and she and I had worked out a new contract.
5. I think the generalization, and stereotyping of "kids magicians" is a bit offensive! I've seen all sorts of people suck at what they do, but that doesn't mean that everyone in that role sucks, as well.

All that being said, this is how my particular situation turned out:

The event coordinator was very pleased, and suggested that she would probably want ME back, next year.

I spoke to another entertainer, in a nearby metropolitan area (I live and work out of a very rural area). He advised me that he always pays 10% for referrals, and gets 10% on referrals. He is a full time pro that is quite successful, and is well known on the lecture circuit in his field. He suggested that since the original agreement was so vague, that 5% was "okay", but that 10% sounded very appropriate for my specific situation.

I spoke with the original magician, and it turns out that his "whatever" was not a negative. He just got my text at a bad time, and responded quickly, then forgot to get back with me. I told him that I would be sending 10%, instead of 5%. He was happy and I was happy. Most importantly, the customer was happy with the service!

Blundering through? Wow!
As I said, as a part timer, I have always handled my own bookings, so wasn't familiar with "referrals".

Is that "blundering through? I didn't need this particular gig. I was just trying to help some folks out. I'm not out searching for referrals without knowing anything about referrals. HE CALLED ME!

Also, several times, here, I've seen magicians ask for advice on the Café, and seen a response similar to "it's stupid to ask magicians for advice", including early on in THIS THREAD.

So, how is one to avoid "blundering", by being informed, if a magician shouldn't ask other magicians about the business of magic?

In every other field I've ever been involved with, the way to learn best is by watching and asking those that have been successful in that particular field!

I really didn’t say you were blundering through. I said to encourage someone to do so is bad.

I for one never badmouth kids performers.

I agree that you have to find a successful performer and maybe learn from them. Everyone has to decide for themselves what they call "successful". Too many performers get on the hamster wheel and start running. They see this and think it is the only way they can do things so they just start and never stop. It becomes impossible to get off this wheel. Then they just start doing the same things they see every other performer doing and thinking it is success.

As I said everyone has to decide for themselves what they think "success" is for them. It is a personal matter and everyone decides for themselves and they are all correct.

I am not saying what "success" is for anyone else. As I said it varies from person to person. BUT by the same token when all you see is one version of it then that is sort of all you aspire to. Widen your vision is I guess the point.

Danny,
I agree that "success" is defined by the individual! I consider my magic business to be a success, as far as what is was intended to be. I never had aspirations of being a full time performer. I am very happy in my medical profession. Since I am very passionate about magic, my intent was to have an enjoyable "side business", in which I could share smiles, and see the joy and excitement on faces, all while making a little extra cash to further develop my art. And I have done that; so I consider it successful.

I have several customers that invite me back over and over, knowing that my fee is higher than the other two working performers in my area. That tells me that MY show and MY entertainment is worth what I charge. I stay pretty busy for a part timer. I am a "one man show", other than the composers of the royalty free music that I use. I do my own advertising, web presence, routining, booking, and clerical work. I don't have a NEED for referrals or agencies, as I stay booked most of the time, on days I am not working my regular job, or have other commitments.

I believe in giving 100% to everything I do! I do not "have it all figured out", though. There is always room to grow! That is why, when something comes up that I am clueless about, I ask for advice from others. I know that the Café is full of full time performers, so I thought this would be a good place to get some information. As I stated, in my original post... besides myself, there are only 2 other "working" magicians in my area. One was the magician that passed the gig on to me, and the other was the one that gave me the initial advice (5%). I was completely aware that I knew nothing of how referrals worked, and had no other locals to ask, so I brought the question here, to the Café.

My question seems to have stirred up a hornet's nest!

Anyway, Thank you all for your input, even the guy that thinks children's magicians are a joke. This situation has worked itself out. And I will NEVER accept another referral without clear expectations outlined from the start!

This is a wonderful takeaway.

I don't believe mindpro thinks kids magicians are a joke in itself, but besides that I'm glad it worked out for you,
hope you find these deals successful in the future.

As "the guy" you are likely referencing, while unaware of it, you are proving my point. There are so many things concerning about what you have written in your posts and there is so much that you don't see. So many things, yet when someone attempts to point them out to you you get all defensive and proclaim you are just a part-timer who is content with where they are at. As if that somehow excuses you from being unaware or ignorant of what you don't know or see. All of this is a great example of a combination of magician's thinking and typical mindset and mentality of kids magicians. You will not learn this from "other magicians in your area" or most here on the Café.

Also let's clarify, your comment is incorrect about thinking children's magicians are a joke. Au contraire! In reality I coach, consult and have trained more kid's magicians, part and full-time than anyone here on the Café and more than likely in America. I have written about the whole kids performers mindset, mentalities, operations and business (or gross lack thereof) and so much more for over 35 years. It is an insult to have your uninformed opinion claim that I think of kids magicians to be a joke. I write open and honestly about them and call it as it really is from an industry perspective, but I never think they're a joke. I have often said that I believe kids magicians/performers actually have more opportunity than any other type of magician IF they knew how to perform and conduct business properly.

Also I regularly speak of operating from a me-based perspective rather than an industry perspective. This is the biggest problem with kids performers. You posts here are another great example of that. At first it appeared you were actually seeking industry-specific knowledge regarding the referral concern. But re-read all of your posts and count the number of times you use the word "I." This is the first sign of me-based operations and mindset. This is not serving the client, the audience, and certainly not he industry. Then when several of us tried to point it out you took offense and became defensive.

I also regularly discuss here how magicians, especially kids magicians, regularly think they want or need one thing, when in reality it is completely something else and more that they truly need.

Here are a couple of recent threads about many of these things:

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......forum=44

Yu really should become mor efaniliar with teh basics and foundational aspect of being a magician, kids or otherwise. There are really only two levels of performers - amateurs/hobbyists and professionals. I do not believe there is such a thing as a "semi-professional." This is something performers like to use or make up to in their minds to justify not having to commit to being a professional while just claiming to "do this on the side" or "only occasionally." They feel this allows them not to have be as good or to adhere to the same standards and levels of professionalism as a pro and to be able to operate to a lesser, somehow acceptable standard and expectation to those booking you. This is me-thinking from the performer but not the real-world reality of those you are performing for.
The full thread in its entire context is here: https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......forum=44

I hope this helps you if you approach it in the proper context with an open mind. I guarantee it will help you in both sides (show and business) of your performing.

I really think some entertainment business-specific education on being a kids performer could be a great asset to you, especially given what you do, and how when understood, it could be used in your area of specialty. There is a plethora of information here in Tricky Business as it is one of the most informative forums on The Magic Café for operational education and knowledge from many full-time performers (and part-time too.)