The topic of Kids Magicians came up in the “How Do I…” thread. And since the OP that triggered that topic expressed he had no interest in kids show or the kid’s market, AND I personally believing this is a topic that really needs to be discussed and explored here, which I’ve wanted for years (but any attempt of business on the Little Darlings forum immediately falls flat on deaf ears), I decided to start this thread for this particular Kids Magician topic.

I have a lot to add here but didn’t want to derail my own thread due to this great part of that discussion and where it may lead. As I mentioned in the other thread it will likely spawn other threads and topics such as this. Like the other thread I would love to separate fact and experience from theories and opinions and would like to keep this just to those currently operating as kids performers or who, like Greg, was a kids performer for some time and is still active in the entertainment industry.

Now Please understand this is not to speak poorly or down to kids performers as so many will immediately claim. No one here is trying to slam or attack them in any ways, but rather trying to have a looooong overdue serious discussion about kids magicians, their place in the industry, the way they operate in the magic community and the many anomalies of the kids magicians. This is not to offend but to have a great discussion to identify the current issues and concerns, and to hear form kids performers themselves.

So here is an easy recap of what has been said so far…


Posted: Oct 7, 2022 10:17 am

It has always annoyed me how kid shows are looked down on, but if done right we sow the seeds for when they get older booking magic for events.



Dannydoyle
Posted: Oct 7, 2022 10:31 am

I have always heard that claim but never seen it done to fruition. Unless you are talking about planning for other children’s events then sure. But no corporate booking agent or anyone I’ve ever dealt with on that level would think of hiring the guy who did hippity hop rabbits at his 8th birthday party as entertainment for an adult function.

It is doubtful that it works that way. But just doing the kids events themselves is enough.

And people looking down on kids show guys says more about those looking down than who they are looking down on if you ask me. Pretty insecure it seems.

Fact is I could never do kids shows. It is not a skill I possess. I would starve as opposed to the hundred grand thing. No kidding.



Andy Young
Posted: Oct 7, 2022 11:08 am

Look at how many people became engineers because of Star Trek.

I have heard from my clients that they wanted to book a magic show (family/kids) partly because of the memory they had of a magic show in their youth.

Maybe that isn't a norm. I just think that the spark for wanting more has to be brought from somewhere.


Dannydoyle
Posted: Oct 7, 2022 11:17 am

Are they booking the guy who DID the kids show the first time? I thought that was the line you were drawing.



Andy Young
Posted: Oct 7, 2022 11:28 am

No. That wasn't my intent with it.



Greg Arce
Posted: Oct 7, 2022 12:07 pm

I've never looked down on kid show performers, but I stopped doing them when I was in my early teens. There were times when I was younger than the group I was performing for. Anyway, I've known many guys that make a killing just doing kid shows.

In the late 90s, I knew a guy that almost only performed on the weekends yet made a ton load of money. He also had what I believe are called up-sell items. I remember him telling me about hamster races. The parents could pay more money and he would set up this little track and had hamsters with little numbered coats on. The kids would bet play money and I guess win prizes and candy.

I know he worked his tail off on weekends, but then had the rest of the week off to do whatever he wanted. I'm sure there are many out there that would love that lifestyle.

Anyway, let me not break in here because Danny and Mindpro know more about this stuff than most people I've met through the years. I'll leave so you all can LEARN.

Greg



Dannydoyle
Posted: Oct 7, 2022 12:12 pm

Hey no problem! You’re exactly right and as I said guys who look down on kids show performers either don’t know the deal or are just insecure about themselves.

Glad to see you here Greg.

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It has always annoyed me how kid shows are looked down on

To understand this you need to look no further than bad kid’s magicians themselves. Poor-terrible kids magicians are solely responsible for the current status of the stereotype of terrible kid’s magician AND are really responsible for the decline in the perception of magic in general over the years.

Now before other kids magicians get their panties in in an bunch, let me explain a few things.
The two worst elements of kids magicians is due to it being the lowest barrier of entry as it is often where many magicians start as it is believed that it is very easy to perform magic for kids (one of the first misconceptions) and many other misperceptions that start with kids magic.

The main problem with 95% of kids magicians is they choose to only stay only in the kids magic world and do not progress beyond it in the terms of performance and business operations. They choose to stay in their own "limited bubble" and really separate themselves from the larger magic community at large, and the even greater world of performers and entertainers. They just want to remain kid’s magicians the way they want to do it. And herein lies the beginning of many of the problems. Just look at the kids forum here. All they want to discuss is tricks. Nothing about performance, stagecraft, kids/audience management, business operations, marketing, niches,..nothing but tricks. It is so sad but demonstrates their limited mentalities and interests. They don’t want to learn, they don’t want to be educated, they don’t want to grow or progress, they just want to stay in their bubble.

As I shared here before I have in my professional career owned and operated 6 entertainment agencies, three of these were full-service agencies that included kids performances and magicians. As I’ve also said before as an agency representative, when a prospect calls they share with us MUCH more information than they share when they are talking to a magician or performer direct. When they talk to someone direct they feel they are speaking to that one person who performs one type of thing. When they speak to an agency rep, they feel they are speaking to an industry specialists with knowledge that encompasses all types of entertainment, events, venues and applications. They feel they are talking to experts in the industry. Because of this they open up much more thoroughly in not only their wants, needs, and interests, but in their perceptions, beliefs, and experiences. Remember, as I stated earlier, perception is reality, at least to many from the prospects/clients point of view.

What they feel and have to say about kid’s magicians would blow the minds of most kids magicians. Some of you that have been here for some time remember some years back we conducted one of the largest live entertainment surveys in recent history and I mentioned a few of our findings and they are eye-opening to say the least (I can’t seem to find the thread now). I stopped sharing them because many here couldn’t handle them and were talking it out on me and this forum. It was wild, but for those that didn’t take offense, as I said it was eye-opening with so much that could be learned from it.

Now before I continue, I do want to mention that I do believe there are some real professionals, and successful kids magicians and performers. They are strongly in the minority and definitely not the norm, but they are the remaining 5%. They approach and treat their kids performing as a business, whether full-time or part-time, they operate on professional standards, some are leaders in the kids entertainment community, and they are interested in progressing beyond just the kids magician bubble. I have amazingly great respect for these guys and gals (yes, I think women can be among the best kids performers in reality. There are not many of them but they in many ways have greater potential than most guys.)

Some I consider in this 5% from around here would be of course Ken, Donald, The Great Zucchini, Al, Howie, Danny O., Dan F. Gerry, Sam, and of course the Checkers brothers to name just a few. I also have the greatest professional respect for Greg Arce who’s track record speaks for himself. He has helped me and others so freely with his contributions to our art here, at the Magic Castle, and in special projects. There are a couple of women here that I don’t know as well that may also be included in this group, as there are likely others who’s names I may have forgotten as these were just off of the top of my mind at the moment.

Tim H., Sam, and others like myself that specialize in schools I do not consider as kids performers. Yes, our audience may be students of varying grades, but they are typically not seen as kids magicians for a variety of reasons, so while they/we do perform for kids I don’t consider them kids magicians, but I do have the utmost respect for them too.

The point is stereotypes exist for a reason and most are rooted in the truth on some to many levels. Unfortunately when most laymen think of magician or hear the word magician they think of a cheesy kids magician, often in a tux with a top hat. While there are still some that appear like this, we in the business know this is not at all the reality, but it is still how the mass public sees it.

Also, the mass public does not distinguish between closeup, strolling, kids magic, parlour magic, stage or standup magic, or illusions. They think kid’s magic or David Copperfield big illusions. This is one reason, among many, we need to educate people in our process within our business and operations.

Then on top of this their opinion of magicians in general is not very high at all. Youtube hasn’t helped this at all. Some terrible magicians post on youtube (without ever knowing how bad they are - haven’t a clue) This has also damaged magic. Magic is meant to be experienced live - always had been for maximum impact and amazement (with the rare exception of some well-crafted, well-performed, and well edited, lol t.v. magic).

These are just some of the initial things wrong with magic and especially kids magic.

I personally use all of this intel and knowledge to our advantage. It can create some fantastic opportunities once realized and understood.

This is why I would never, in a million years label myself as a Kid’s Magician. It is so limiting and plays right into the stereotype one should be trying to overcome. As Danny said earlier, it is also why one should not be a kids magician and a “corporate magician" side by side in any platform. One discredits the other, each way. So why?

The real crime with this is there are more opportunities for kids magicians if they just understood the proper mindset, got out of their limiting beliefs and kids magic bubble, and saw and committed to the greater opportunity. They can be more in-demand than almost any other type of magician. There are always performance opportunities for decent kids performers.

Many years ago I even created a program (I’ve never mentioned this before on the Café) to allow you to quickly and easily become the #1 kids performer in your market, leaps and bounds over others in your market, to become celebrity-like and even a household name within your market. I’ve sold it obviously with market exclusivity and it isn’t cheep, but the market is so strong it is a life changer. That is how strong the kids market can be. And let me say, I’m not talking about kids birthday parties either as while they certainly can be part of it for many, I have had some that prefer not to do kids birthdays or home parties that still have had the same measurable success. That’s how strongly I believe in the kids market and opportunities that exist.

The truth is kids magicians are among the most delusional magicians in their beliefs and perceptions because of just wanting to stay in that kids bubble. This is why I’ve always believed in things like KIDabra and other kids performers groups and associations that are committed to move these magicians beyond just the bubble, but I also know they don’t really get much into the operations and business aspects as I wish they did. Often just more about tricks and upcoming tricks releases.

So we can say we are tired of the way kids magicians are perceived but we must also realize it exists for a reason, and yet few if any are willing to do anything about it. Nothing to change it. To take the time to learn the mentalities and psychologies behind why it currently exists and address these things at the level of which they start.

Over the years I have spoken at hypnotist conferences, mentalist conventions, magician’s events, DJ associations, comedian/comedy events, many wedding industry events, and many other types of entertainment industry conferences, conventions and associations, but I never hear from kids association or events. They are the epitome of the blind leading the blind, monkey-see, monkey-do mentalities. I’ve probably coached and trained more kids performers than most, yet I never hear any interest from them.

So like Andy, I too am annoyed, but I understand why this exists on many levels, and truth be told, I am more annoyed at the kid’s magicians, the kid’s magic community, for letting this continue and not collectively trying to change this. Maybe its a kind of look in the mirror type of thing or clean up your own backyard type of thing first and foremost.

Again, it is a shame that these pros have to get lumped in with the other 95% and that these mentalities still exist at all.

Excellent assessment of the kid show market! Thank you for challenging us.

I think it really comes down to discovering what segment of the business you excel at, and then disciplining yourself to focus on it. Discovering what you excel at is much harder than it sounds. You must take risks and expose yourself to criticism. And once this discovery is made, focusing on it is difficult also.

I will admit to being caught in the ‘kids show magic bubble’ you talked about. But its because I’ve tried many other things and have come the realization that this is what I’m best at, and this is where I want to be. I enjoy entertaining children, I’m good at it, and therefore I can command a higher fee, and make a decent living doing something I truly enjoy.

As much as I agree with most of your assessment of the kid show business, I wouldn’t go as far as you did here:



There will always be stereotypes, and I see no limitations in pursuing excellence in your chosen field.

One way around the "bubble" might be to have two separate companies,
one under a character name for kids, and another for your other markets.

Better still, when it comes to seo, (if it's a part of your marketing strategy)
having a character name will separate the search results.

Just a thought, figured I'd run it by the more experienced performers.

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic Ken. I think there is a slight difference in what we're saying here. When I talk about kids magicians being in their own "bubble" I mean this is where they started and never explored or grew beyond just staying as a kids magician, therefore have just remained in this limited bubble.

You, yourself said you explored and tried other things only to then realize you felt best at performing for kids. This is really two different things. One has stunned interest in growth beyond their initial toes in the water of magic starting with kids magic, only to never even trying to move on, understand a greater picture in magic and what magic has to offer, but just staying in an initial comfort zone. There is no drive for excellence as you mentioned. None.

Secondly, I don't consider you a kids magician, I consider you (and I don't really know you and your wife) based on our discussions here, what you've shared here about your business and operations, and what I have seen on your website, I would consider you a kids performer or really more so a family entertainer. Again, this is much different than what the industry considers a kids magician. A kids magician is often someone who strings a hanful of kids magic tricks together (usually magic store bought tricks) and calls himself a magician. No theme to their show, no storyline, no transitions, no structure or purpose, just "I am a magician doing these tricks, look at me." No real care for the parents, interests, kids attention spans, kids interests, no concern for the actual event or venue, no stagecraft, no overall intended purpose, but doing their string of tricks and to be paid. All of this from a "what I want to do, the way I want to do it" perspective. This is a kids magician. This is what I say is very limiting.

There is no desire or effort to be the best kids performer they can be, just the minimal or get by and the self-proclamation of "I am a kids magician! No desire to learn more baout the art, presentation, theatrics, and the greater picture of being a performer or an entertainer where the entertainment comes from them, their personality, their ocnnection with the kids as well as their parents and family, and concern for the betterment and the best outcome of the venue or event. To be part of the brotherhood of the magic community and age-old secrets, perceptions, legends, and mystique.

It isthe limiting mindset and mentality of "they are only kids" or the even worse belief that "if I am getting them screaming I am killing it and getting great response. I see these guys all the time and not only is it embarrassing, but it is damaging to all others in the magic performing industry.

The real sad part is it really doesn't have to be this way. It is limiting effort and limiting understanding of the art of magic.

No, I'm sorry, I don't consider you a kids magician at all. This is why I said I wouldn't in a million years want to be only a kids magician.

Ultimately I feel one should really want and strive for being an entertainer. To be an entertaining persoality what uses magic as their vehicle. Same for presenters or speakers, be a persona;ity and communicator first only using your magic as a means of delivery or to present or enforce a message.

Magic can so much more rewarding or fulfilling that just performing a string of tricks together. This is why, as I said earlier, it is so sad that the Little Darlings forum here has been diminished to nothing but magic tricks with little to no interest and anything more. Once upon a time a dozen years ago or so there were discussions of performing, backdrops, promotional materials, wrapped vehicles, sound systems (although again in poor or limited perspectives), and so many other operational aspects. This is not just representative of the Magic Cage kids forum, but also the magic community in general. The art has taken a nosedive with regards to professionalism and I don't see anyone, people or associations fighting for this or doing anything about it.

Look at IBM and SAM and their image now days. Aw, they are just magic meeting to share tricks. These should be the guiding forces to the industry. Magic today is geared to the hobbyist and little more. I don't buy for a minute that the hobbyists keep the magic community alive, no hobbyists keep the magic trick makers alive by wanting only the secrets but nothing to do with the art. No one is fighting for to preserve the generations old mystique and status of magic.

Many that are 35 and older grew up with some sort of live magic in their lives. Often at school assemblies, or a touring magic show through town or fairs and fests. Schools rarely have magic shows anymore compared to years gone by, companies rarely have kids/family events/picnics anymore, touring shows are like circuses - few and far between, and parents of the last generation or two raised on electronic entertainment have no real desire to expose their kids to the live performance arts including magic.

Magic needs an overhaul, starting with kids magic.

So this is what I meant by limited capacities of a kids magician. There is no drive to strive for more than the initial "oh I can do some magic tricks for kids and make a coupe of hundred of dollars." Most magicians today only care about themselves and not the greater betterment of the industry.

It is in this sense that a "kids magician" is very limiting. It is also this that is where the poor performance and stereotype perception begins.

Often performers think the way to do it is the way they were exposed to doing it and there is no other way. It is the formula.

The reason most kids show entertainment isn’t taken seriously is that in reality most parents think of them as a babysitter service. They think getting the kids to scream is successful show. It isn’t. Kindergarten teachers actually don’t make or let kids scream and call it success.

But someone years ago decided this was the formula so it is used time and again by 95% of the working market. Monkey see monkey do. It is a lot like someone getting the idea that 3 sets of 3 tricks was somehow the holy grail for working tables and now it is spouted as gospel. In reality it is a formula that NEVER once would have worked in any gig I ever did. So much of what is preached by the guru types is just not workable information for the long haul.

You can still make money doing it, which is why nobody changes ever. But it in no way maximize the market. It also tends to not get you taken seriously by the rest of anyone booking anything but that type of show. And if it is your first impression it will last.

Strive to be more. Dare to be better. To be fair most genres of magic suffer from this affliction. Heck there’s cars guys still using the words “red hot mamma” and coin guys who pretend a centavo is still active currency in Mexico. Guys still wear tuxedos and frilly shirts. Of course there is a place for that type of thing and it fits in perfectly. But don’t do it because others do it.

As usual, I'm learning a lot from these threads. Which they were around when I got into magic... I was five at the time and it was the 60s. I started with my first magic book called Magic Secrets by Kajar and within two years I was charging the kids on my street fifteen cents to see my show. BIG MONEY!!

I did have a lot of fun doing shows for kids for many years... and many times I was younger than my audience. My next love of magic ended the kid shows and I got into escapes and dove magic. Anyway, there is a lot of info on these pages and I'm sure it will help many.

Man, I'm going to try and put up a photo of my first charged show I did in my building. I ended with the E-Z Hat loader because I felt it was my first store bought item and not something I had built myself. That's what you think at the time.
Here goes that photo attempt.


/Users/gregoryarce/Desktop/1st magic show.JPG

Well, that didn't work. Sorry.

I've talked to a few magicians that only do the adult market and they are impressed by my ability to do kid shows, one said "I could never do that, you are a better man than me". As far as stereotypes, when you show up and "kill" for 45 minutes, rather than being just a babysitter, that is all I can do to change peoples minds. Part of the stereotype, aside from what's been mentioned, is Hollywood's fault, the way guys like me are shown whenever they have a scene at a birthday or whatever, lazy easy writing, like the way mimes are shown, cheap easy humor.
I do take pride in getting kids to have really good memories of the show and so they have really good feelings about it as adults. As far as the Little Darlings section, yeah, it is hard to get a good conversation going about stuff other than tricks and audience management, etc., I try sometimes but don't get much response other than from Ken Northridge. I tend to avoid Tricky Business section because of all the arrogent and rude postings and back and forth nonsense, but I get bored and curious so I read and post anyway sometimes. In fact, so many people outside of the Café' complain about the Café and avoid it for those reasons.
I've gone to some Kidabra conventions, though I may not go anymore. They do have some marketing/business seminars but they should emphasize that more. Many of the people who go to those are retired, or entertain at churches, etc., so that may be part of the problem. None of the marketing materials written by magicians that I have read have been very good, not so much about what they put in it but by what they leave out, plus they are kind of written in an amateurish way, have typos, etc.
As far as the quality of other kids entertainment specialists, I haven't really seen the local guys, but some I've seen elsewhere are boring, and some confuse screaming look don't see reactions (which is good/fine in moderation) with laughter and real entertainment.

Hollywood isn’t being lazy. They are showing what a very large percentage of the performers in the market act like. It is simply representing what they see.

We get more kids magicians submissions at our agencies than almost any other (although mentalists were hot for about a decade or so, but that's another story) type of performer. I so wish I could share with you the promotional information and even the cover letter or email that accompanies it. This, to us, is truly their first impression to us and it is terrible. It is similar to how the magic community soooo overhypes its new trick releases yet without actually saying anything. Same for most kids magicians' materials.

You would literally cringe. Not only that but we have complete submission policies, rules, and guidelines clearly stated on the websites and they never follow them at all, not even close. They don't even read them. It is so crazy!

You would be appalled if you could see them. 98% of the time we will not spend more than 15 seconds on viewing them. If this is how they present themselves to us, the agency that they're trying to get listed with, the agency that could get them thousands of dollars in bookings and income, how on earth could we possibly even consider putting them in front of our most valued clients and accounts. Again, they have no concept. I remember one guy (a twenty-something, and his father so couldn't understand this I offered to send him by book An Entertainer's Guide To Working With Agents And Agencies. After supposedly both reading it, they still didn't get it. Hadn't a clue!

This is all part of that mindset and kids magicians bubble that I speak of.

Danny said they do it because there is no other way. But there is they just don't have the interest, drive, or willingness to learn or search for something better. There is more than one formula. Or we take the elements we need or require and make our own formula. That's what I did and it has been wildly successful and it is really so uncomplicated and easy. Just the fact that most magicians don't even think of their magic or performing as a business is where it all starts. Look at Ken, he knows his business, he knows his numbers, and seems to run it as his own business. Most do not. They simply don't see it as a business, they just see it as getting paid to do their tricks.

Several years ago I had a thread here in TB with something to the affect of "Do you have a business or just a self-employeed job"- something to that affect. Man the kids magicians soooo didn't get it. Not even close. It was sad and comical at he same time. It really demonstrated that all magicians are not equal, and one of the greatest problems with these forums is it doesn't separate the skilled professionals, from the amateurs, beginners, or newbies.

There was also a good example in one of those old threads where a kids magician did all of the things the magic course gurus said to do - redo your website, have bright and vibrant marketing tools, have many testimonials, provide a ton of social proof, use keywords throughout so that SEO ranks you higher, have videos, wrap your van, and someone even suggested him having his own thee song. He had all of this, plus I believe a bunny or some kind of animals, about a dozen domains with each city and/or county he served, and of course everyone here praised him for all of this. He had all of this yet still didn't have a clue what to do with it, how to use it all, how to operate as a business, how to position himself, or anything. He constantly out down those who tried to help him and only listened to those that supported him and his lack of business credibility. It is just crazy how they support such buffoonery and tactics, yet have no desire to actually get out of the bubble and learn how to operate a successful entertainment business. He spent more time working and pounding down the fakery, puffery, and the whole fake it til you make it mentality...believing his own nonsense and those blindly supporting this nonsense (more monkey see, monkey do) that he started to believe his own BS and then tried posting this fakery here and he immediately got called out, not by me, not by Danny, but by others here in the forum that like us will call out the poor, incorrect or harmful info when we see it. He got banned from here for such nonsense and the way he treated the real professionals here. Again, crazy.

All of this is part of this kids magician bubble I speak of. There are hundreds of examples of this, this is how serious it is.

Mindpro,

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts in your last 2 posts. I now agree with you 100% instead of 95%. LOL

I like Dan Freed’s strategy for changing people’s stereotypes of kid magicians:



I must say there is another type of children’s performer out there that does more damage to the kid magician business than the ‘string a bunch of tricks together’ magician. It is the magician who is believes he is on his way to becoming the next David Copperfield and has agreed to do kid shows because he needs the money.

He thinks entertaining children is below his pay grade and has no passion for it. When the children misbehave he has no patience and always blames it on the children or the parents who raised them. His selection of effects is often too complicated for children to understand. He uses rude, adult humor, sexual innuendos, and sometimes even blue humor. His reasoning for this is the adults are the ones that are paying him so that’s who he wants to ‘impress.’

After seeing a performance like this, I wonder how many parents decide never allow another children’s magician in their home again.

I should clarify. They don’t realize there are better ways.

I’ll tell you one problem is the constant back slapping and rah rah nonsense often given to this type of performer in the name of “brotherhood” and wanting to be nice. Also if you are learning from someone who doesn’t know things can be better this is all you learn. Nobody wants to push others to strive for more. To be better. To take the art further than they found it.

Often even when shown the difference most attribute it to luck. Not only in performance. For example I have a dog. He is a large German Shepard. He does exactly what I tell him to when I tell him to. He is a trained protection dog. People see us walking or training (Which I do every day.) and I can not tell you how many more people have said “boy are you lucky” as opposed to “wow that’s a lot of work". I mean it is 99 to 1. It is not 1 part luck at all. It is by design. PERIOD. Nobody sees the thousands of hours put into making him the great dog he is. Mindpro has met him. He is better than the huge majority of dogs you will run into.

Make no mistake it was work and lots of it and all of it tough. The work started before he was born. It started in breeding. The very FOUNDATION of the dog he would become. Without which he could be nothing more than average.

Here is the rest of the point. My sister is getting a dog now from the folks who helped me train him. They are better bedders than where I got mine. Her dog will have even better foundations and be a better dog than mine! Interestingly enough this is not my first dog BY FAR. I have had other dogs and they were great for what they were. (Ask Mindpro.) No kidding they listened, and were great companions and house trained and on the surface just about all you could ask from that dog. BUT I knew it could be better and searched out HOW to be better and WORKED TO BE BETTER and ended up with my dog. On the surface he is absolutely unbelievable and more so when compared with every other dog around. Still I searched out for him to be even better and found the folks who bred and are training my sisters dog and that is yet another level.

Why do I tell that story? Because even with the success of the dog, I know there is better! I searched out for better. Now my sister will have a better dog, and the next dog I get will be better. (Though it never say that to my dog, and Mindoro better not either!) Don't let yourself become content. Don't stop striving for more. Don't let your ego tell you that everything is just fine. It will cost you in the long run.

Enough dog stories sorry.

I agree very much with this. They don't realize there are better ways and they don't want to. They just want to be content in that bubble. I can't imagine only wanting to stay at that initial basic level. It is not really even a professional level but simply the first level, default level.

Yes, the constant rah-rah, backslapping and support for only doing the minimum is very damaging. It is the same as the whole "participation trophy" syndrome believing as long as you show up and try to do something it is an accomplishment. No it isn't. Danny and I often speak of the damage that this false encouragement and general rah-rah advice can bring. How it can derail people's true efforts and fill their head with a lot of out of date general nonsense,. We often speak of how damaging it can be.

Most here are not aware of it but another thread here has caused someone here some major damage that I have been privy to. It is not my place to get into the details here but it is a great example of just what we speak of. And, as usual the person that generated this damage once again has no clue whatsoever.

I see this everyday in those I work with. Many come to me damaged, frustrated, confused, and do not know what to do, where to go, or where they went wrong. Yet, they will immediately say "I've bought all the popular magician's courses and books and took the advice of some here." We;ll, there you go. That is exactly where you went wrong. I have spoken before about how only about 15% of those that apply to be coached, consulted or trained by me ever get accepted. This bubble effect and the ability to think beyond it and power through to the something bigger or better just as Danny expressed is a partial component. Along with complete and utter honesty, no ego, and only listen to those that understand the greater picture base don both knowledge and experience and that are committed to helping you achieve your personal goals. While I love working with kids entertainers, most are not willing to see this and commit to putting in the work and effort.

Yes, Danny and his dog have an amazing, far better and more intense that e typical dog owner/lover. It is really something to see. I'm getting Danny a cry pillow for Christmas as he will be needing it once he sees how well his sister's dog turns out. Just kidding, but it really something to see. I'm sure it'll drive him to strive for even better too.

You see, there are those that strive for the status quo, the typical or common expected level of accomplishment or success. Then there are those that strive to be the best of the best or the best or top in their market and to exceed the typical status quo. When I speak of those in the "bubble" they have done neither of these. They haven't event put in the effort (or even the desire) to become the typical average, they just stay at the bare minimum to get by. They are the bottom-feeders as they are called in the industry. They bring the market price and value down, the create the lower-end of the curve.

Honesty and real-world insight is what is needed even if it isn't easy to accept to hurts to hear. Success is simply but it isn't easy, an dsometimes you get dirty and get your feelings hurt. It is called the price of success.

Although I happen to agree with folks assessment of the low end
kid workers, it may be good to pivot to what may help those folks,
(at least the folks who want to get better) and by extension the industry.

There seems to be two different problems, one is lack of professionalism,
which is being well covered in the other thread.

The second is the show itself, ie. "a string of tricks" and "not right
for a kid targeted show"

If I understand what's been written so far, that's what's keeping so
many folks in a bubble.

So that leads to my question, what brings a show up to a non
"bottom feeder".

the structure and quality of the show itself?

and what is the importance of things such as proper staging, ie. backdrops,
banners, sound system, music etc.?

I think we've focused on the image and perception as we have because it was addressing Andy Young's questions and concerns which was the inspiration for this thread. I hope he hasn't left us here

There is a difference between a string of tricks which a magician does and a show or performance which a performer does. I firmly believe that a show (and all it encompasses) if the difference. And the first step to that is the mindset or proper mentality. Yes, as you said, professionalism is the first step. Followed by the proper structure, purpose, and execution of a show.

A proper show should have all of the elements in place and "on purpose." Forget the tricks at this point. Who are you as a performer? What do you want your audience to experience? What components do you want in the performance? What is the ride or journey you want them to take with you?

There should be a start, an opening, a setup, and introduction, any feature segments, a climax or peak of the performance, the closing, and ending, and all desired and specifics in between. This should be charted out. THEN consider the tricks, performance pieces (not all performance pieces need to be a trick), the interactive segments, the branding segments, setups, transitions and the payoffs, calls to actions, as these should then be added as they fit (do not force something just because you like the trick).

Specifics about the look (clothing, costumes, staging) and any characterization.

This is why I say a structure and execution in proper sequential order is how a professional performance should be created. Factored in are your market, performance venue, performance dynamics, expectations, perceptions, business operations and executions, packages and pricing, setup, load-in and out logistics, and so much more.

The problem is the level of guys were talking about don;t even think of these things. They're not even aware of any of this it its existence. They don't care about any of this. Again, all they want to do the tricks they want to do and call themselves a magician.

Yes, then next would be the production and quality to bring this performance to life. That's a start.

Thanks mindpro, I believe a lot of folks get caught up on "transitions"
Often because the story isn't properly developed.

This being the business section, and no doubt everyone I see
posting here understands the importance of this, I won't
get into some possible remedies for it here.

But in a few days I'll start a thread in it's proper place, and post
a few tips for someone trying to get away from doing "a string of tricks".

[quote]On Oct 11, 2022, Ken Northridge wrote:
Mindpro,

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts in your last 2 posts. I now agree with you 100% instead of 95%. LOL

I like Dan Freed’s strategy for changing people’s stereotypes of kid magicians:



In theory, I agree with Dan's point as well. There is no better way to blow them away, establish your business, and generate a reputation than by having a fantastically great perforce.

However, this has little to do or little impact on the industry or community. Little to do to change the stereotype. Yes, it helps you specifically, but not much more than that. It can create a nice partial positioning for your business but only to the very few that have experienced your show. Sure, it is a great starting point but is an example of a "me" mindset rather than something that will impact the greater image and perception of the industry and community.

I look forward to that thread when you start it. Yes, often storylines aren't developed. However, I disagree with you on the transitions thing. Most of these guys aren't even aware of transitions. Let's face it, the tricks for most come right out of the box. Few at this level even try to make it their own. So if the tricks and outcomes of the tricks are built in, all that remains are the transitions, personality, and turning them into an actual performance,

Watch any of these guys...they do the trick, and then fall apart between tricks until they start into the next trick. It is during these transitions which the story is told, the thread is woven throughout the performance, personal connections with the audience are made, and so much more.

All they want to do is shotgun into the next trick. Many these days don't even use the longtime corny hack lines that were so common. Think of Rocky & Bullwinkle - "Now for something I think you'll really like!"

This may not be the correct place, but I don't necessarily think effect after effect is bad. It really depends on your character.

Transitions can be rough for some. I do more of a jazz style and play off of what the audience gives me.

As for outfit, I do and have thought about the look. I want to look different from a normal person. I dress loud. Although I have found that kids still recognize me when I'm out of the outfit as well. I guess I am memorable, which I don't know if that is a trait or something that can be learned.

I meant to say "struggles with transitions",

Here's the thread on performing a cohesive show as promised,
https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view......forum=41