I've been wandering the Web, looking for a good price on those little Monkey Fists for my cups and balls routine, but the best price I can find is at Denny and Lee's--for $25 to $40! Now, I've never priced small balls of leather before, but this seems awfully high to me. I have seen Mumblepeas' post which includes the link to making them myself, but I can't get the ball to tighten up. Anyone find these, or make these cheaper? I love the two-tone ones at Denny's, but I don't know if I want to spend that much money for these. Any ideas or suggestions would be helpful and appreciated.


Thanks!
Jay

I know that I paid $25.00 for Mike Rogers' leather baseballs. . .assuming I never lose them, I will never have to replace them. I cannot make the same statement about the crochet balls.

I would assume that this will be a market average, for these, or the Gordian, Monkey Fist, leather ones as well.

But I'll keep my eyes peeled for you.

--Ron

You can find details on "rolling your own"
monkey fist at:

http://www.angelfire.com/pa4/t173/monkeyfist.html


I would guess that you coul;d make attractive "fists" using rawhide shoelaces or craft lacing found at most hobby supplies.

Denny and Lee is the only retail outlet for these balls. I suppose you might find a set for sale on ebay at some point in the future, however I think most fellas are pleased with their sets and it's unlikely you'll find any soon.

Up until the time that I came up with this ball, the Monkey's Fist had never been used for that purpose before. Certainly, the two-tone had never been done as the knot is far from being the decorative knot cited elsewhere on this board; it's use was purely utilitarian.

I assume that you spent well in excess of a 100 dollars for your cups. I'd assume that you'd want the best balls money could buy as it is the only other required component of the trick.

Hi Eric: Thanks for the reply. Err...I spent 35.00 on my cups--brass, single bead. I love the way they act in my hands. I have been searching for the perfect ball for a little while now, and I saw the Monkey Fists at Magic Funday a few weeks ago. I just didn't have $40.00 to spend on them at the time (still don't!). I am glad to know where I can definitely find them. I will put them on my Hanukah List and hope for the best. Thanks again!

Jay

By the way, do most people spend 'in excess of' 100 dollars for their cups? That sure does seem like a hefty sum!

Actually 200 dollars is more in keeping with what most fellas spend these days.

In defense of the price on the balls, I sold them to Denny for wholesale, which is traditonally 50% of the price you see. If you've tried tying these, you know that tightening them correctly is most of it.

We want all the attention on the balls portion of the cups and balls, NOT the cups themselves. Thus the more striking the ball, the more likely the spectators attention will become centered upon them.

And you certainly do have striking balls!

You don't need to defend the price, Eric--that's what I was alluding to in my initial post by saying that the price 'seems' high to me. I now see that this is a fair price for these. Sorry if I offended you of price gouging or anything. I didn't mean the post like that.

Seriously, that two-tone set is going on the holiday list. I do want them.

Thanks for all of the replies.

Jay

P.S. So, I guess the new question is: If people are not supposed to be looking at or regarding the cups with any importance, what are people doing spending $200 on them?

I didn't mean to get defensive about the price, nor did I intend to in anyway indirectly denigrate Denny; he's a great guy and an honest man who runs a fantastic magic shop.

As far as pricing goes on any item, usually the price reflects the quality and features of that particular item.

I've got four sets of cups that I've bought over the years -- a set of Fox cups made by Danny Dew, a Bertram set made by Ross Bertram, a Cellini set, and recently I traded some of my work for a set of Gazzo's cups. The least I spent was 100 dollars for them -- the most was 350, why? The first 3 mean too much to me to use outside where I do most of my work and whereas the latter 3 sets could easily take the abuse that the streets provide, the Fox cups cannot but do have a simple beauty and an intrinsic illusion accompanying them. Carlyle exploited this illusion in his later days.

Aluminum cups will blow over outside, exposing what lies within at very unopportune times. Brass cups, unless made of extremely heavy gauged metal, if dropped, will be knocked out of round and will forever more bind on one another when stacked. So it all depends on how and where you use them.

I'll never forget the first time I saw Johnny "Ace" Palmer perform his cup and ball routine. He had loaded two of his cups (which at the time was the small Paul Fox cups) with baby chicks and was proceeding to
load the third when the second cup he'd loaded began to "move" across the table. The chick within was pushing the cup as it was light enough for him to do so. Since that time, I noticed that Johnny learned better and acquired a set of the Magic Inc. cups and had them silver plated.

Contrary to the impression that this post may have created, I'm not a collector of cups. Each set that I own have their own use and/or meaning to me.

I used to tie monkey fists all the time when I was in the cubs/scouts 15+ years ago.

Here are a few hints:

1) Get the object you are going use as a core for the monkey fist (a marble, ball bearing - A better choice perhaps as there are a greater range of sizes but might make noises you don't want to make) and hold it in between the tips of your index finger and middle finger of your left hand (right hand if you are left handed)

2) With the material you are doing the wrapping with (leather, cord etc) do the initial wraps. If you can't cover your core material in three or four wraps its probably best to get some thicker wrapping material. If you use leather then you can wet it initially and it will shrink when it dries resulting in a slighly tighter knot (but this is not necessary).

3) Tie the knot as detailed in the instructions. If you are having difficulty initially try removing the core until you have tied half the knot. Always keep the string on your two fingers until the knot is complete. Always tie the knot LOOSELY to begin with. It makes it much easier and the end result is always better.

4) To tighten - Carefully remove the assembly from your fingers. Ensuring the core doesn't fall out. Ok now on the first turn you made on the knot pull up the lose loop (this is at the top of the assembly at the front) on that turn until only a small amount of the free end. Pull down at the back (The idea is to move all the slack in the knot from one end of the string, throught the knot to the other end.) Pull the slack into the second loop and so on until you have gone through each loop of the knot. It maybe necessary to repeat the tightening procedure one or two times to get the desired result.

It *does* take a bit of practice to tie a decent monkey fist. However it is medatative and worth the effort. You'll probably get it after 2-3 attempts.

I would like correct Mr Evans without sounding conceited.

a) Yes the knot was a utility knot initially, handles for things and adding a weight to the end of a rope for throwing, connecting two button holes. But it is extensively used for its decorative effect.

b) I used monkey's fists in a (pretty poorly executed) version of the cups and balls when I was a child. I admit they weren't two tone though. Two tone fists are fairly unique and are a nice touch. If I used them then I am sure a few other people did too. Monkey's fists are a natural decorative ball choice for anyone who has had prior exposure to their existence.

The price does seem a little excessive though. I know tying them can be a bit labour intensive, but if you learn to tie them yourselves if you lose one ball it won't be such a big deal - you can just re-tie a replacement ball (I'd be gutted if I lost a $10 piece of string).

Good luck

Kris Sheglova

Boy do I grow weary of this.

I've made much less than minimum wage for trying to make a good product for my fellow magicians and just about wear my hands out to provide a quality product, hoping that others will find value in what I do only to find others insinuating that I grow fat at others expense.

Recently a friend who had much more experience in these matters than I, cautioned me against spending too much time and effort posting information on bulletin boards like this. Basically stating that the information I was sharing needed to be earned by those individuals, as I myself had earned it -- out in the world. At the time, I didn't agree with him. Now I'm beginning to feel differently about it.

Perhaps I'm defensive, perhaps I'm too sensitive. But for years I've made my living out in the world among laymen, and they never question my abilities or sincerity. When I present my hat to them, they respond kindly and generously.

Lately I've been spending more of my time trying to help and further other magician's knowledge and abilities. It would seem that some are appreciative and others resentful -- why or what about, I've no idea. What I have come to appreciate is the fact that a magician's development is dependant upon the sincerity that they place into their work, and there is no way to gauge this online. So be they punk or master, there's just no way of knowing unless they've already made a name for themselves. I've watched magician after magician become resentful towards their less than wise brethren. I don't want to become bitter towards anyone for any reason, so buy my products or not as you wish. I'll not be posting anymore on this, or likely, any other topic -- I've obviously far more valuable uses for my time.

referring to eric's bal-- er, product, as a"$10 piece of string" seems kind of insulting. Also if you're using the balls regularly and you lose one, a new one won't match the others.

It's easy enough to say, I was doing that when I was a kid. But I've read a lot of forums with people asking for suggestions on what to use as balls for cups and balls, and I never saw anyone --including you-- suggesting to use monkey fists for the cups and balls. Until Eric started marketing his, and Denny advertised them as monkey fists.

Besides, I really can't see how learning to tie the knot, and finding proper materials, could be cost effective re time and effort.


Nowlin Craver

We discussed the Monkey Fist type of ball under this heading in the Balls for Cups and Balls section. I posted:

“I use a “Monkey’s Fist” knot for a ball. Mine a shave under 1 inch and made of strands of red and black leather (leather laces). I have made some final load balls that are about 3 inches in diameter out of red and black rope, but don’t use them much as I favor fruit loads for the finale.

The Monkey Fist knot is an old sailing ship decorative knot. While it is a ball in a general sense it has “edges” that help keep it from rolling.

This knot makes a pretty ball and is easy to tie. There is an instruction page with illustrations at http://www.realknots.com/knots/faqknot.htm#monkey”

I have made my own Monkey Fist balls for dozens of years and I think that $40.00 a set of four is cheap. In fact, now I think that I would rather buy a set than spend the time getting the materials and making my own.

I have never made more than I would use and never made any for other magicians (even though I have been asked). I just cannot afford the time that it takes.

$40.00 is a bargain! Eric, I would be interested in a set of final load Monkey fist balls! Maybe 3”, do you make them?

Well, this has turned into an interesting thing here. Kris, thanks for the tips about tying a good 'fist.' I'm sure many will find that helpful. Eric, sorry you feel that people are beating you up in here. I don't think that was anyone's intent. People will always complain about the high costs of magic props, but I've never heard a bad word about your product, and I do plan to buy them from you/Denny.

You should think twice about leaving the Cafe. I enjoy your posts and find them informative as well. I loved the story about the baby chick moving the cup across the table! Please stick around--We'll all be better off, the more people there are contributing here.

Sincerely, Jay

Thanks Jay. I guess I had a temper tantrum earlier. I'm used to dealing with hecklers out there but my dealings with fellow magicians has been extremely limited over the years and I'm not entirely at home here. If you're talking techniques or methods, that's one thing, but when my work/products, that I care so much about, is questioned that's an entirely different matter. I guess I should develop a little thicker skin in that regard.

Mumblepeas, I've no plans on making loads at this time, and thanks for backing me (my product) up.

I forgot to thank Mr. Craver for his, as always, perceptive observations.

Thank you for your comments on my behalf, they are most appreciated.

I believe I had the pleasure of seeing some of your work at the Cellini lecture. They are exquiste balls and well worth the price. I especially liked the larger ones that were worked around the black marbles. I have also notice a couple of sets on E-bay this past week but were not sure if these were your work or not.

Yep they were mine -- I was wondering how they would be received with merely a photo to go on. I have been tentatively planning on marketing them on the web for some time. I wasn't satisfied with the outcome of the first set I'd placed there so I pulled the second one.

Thanks for your comments regarding them and btw, if you'd held the large balls up to the light so that the two poles lined up, you'd find that it was a deep red marble inside. I've been playing with the idea of having a mini laser light up the inside so that they glow, but while fun and pretty, it's impractical.

hey, I was bidding on those darn balls. so that's how the second set got pulled.

I also saw them at the cellini lecture and they are great. especially the 2 color braded ones. i have no idea how you do that.

I experimented with creating my own monkey-fist balls this weekend and I was not to unhappy with the result but...

1. It takes quite a while
2. I was only able to do the single color
3. The 2 tone mfist balls look awesome
4. how do you do it.
5. when I get a good set of cups, I'm going to get a set of these balls. they're great.

I'm glad you did not disappear.

good work eric,


frank

Thanks Frank,

It's magicians like you, Jay, Payne, and of course Nowlin that makes this forum is a great deal of fun at times (it's good to know that there are some out there who find value in what I've spent much time thinking about and then doing).

As far as the two-tone MF and braided balls are concerned, to borrow a shopworn phrase: I make them "very carefully", and I've got the sore, stiff hands to prove it.

Eric,

Apologies if it appeared that my post was offensive to you. It certainly was not my intention. To be fair I have not seen your products and I am sure they are of a fine quality. You certainly have testament to that effect.

I certainly accept it takes a certain skill to produce an asthetically pleasing knot and can be time consuming and for someone who wants quality props at a reasonable price you product is bound to be idea.

However I also believe that learning to tie your own is a pleasing exercise. Once you get the knack it does have some advantages including:

Being over to choose the materials and thus look and size and preferred weight.

You can produce replacements, extra balls, final loads to your own specifications.

I personally find it quite relaxing, somewhat akin to playing around with a Rubiks cube. But I am sure there are a lot of people out there who feel that they don't have the patience and would rather have good ready made balls.

However I don't envy you having to tie hundreds of them and certainly don't think you'll be making a fortune from them.

I wish you all the best with your product.

Regards,

Kris Sheglova

Ok, i tried to tie a 7/8 inch 2 tone monkey-fist last night.

it took me over an hour to do one and it was the size of a final load and everything was all messed up. it was huge and it looked horrible.

I have no idea how he does it.