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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts |
I am so torn on this one...part of me is fired up because we drag other species into our own internecine global madness; and another part of me says, "Anything that helps our Troops come home alive is a good thing."
Thoughts? http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/gadgets-el......eal-dogs
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On 2011-09-30 10:58, panlives wrote: I agree with both parts of you. Meanwhile we Americans should get as politically involved as possible to keep our troops out of danger in the first place. We need to re-assess war and its necessity--or lack thereof. That re-assessment should include our use of animals. I wonder if anyone has ever calculated how many horses were lost in the Civil War? War sucks, and it sucks so badly that the United States--which has built the most incredible war machine ever in history, but still gets bogged down in places in the world where our soldier's blood is being spent on a freedom for others that never comes--needs to stop being a country of war and to become a country of peace. Just how we can do that is something that escapes me. But now is the time, and greater minds than mine need to engage themselves on this topic a lot more than measuring the speed of neutrinos. It is the most pressing topic of American life. My nephew (the one that did a tour in Iraq as a lowly grunt) has just received his commission and is now an officer. I am proud and terrified at the same time. |
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts |
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On 2011-09-30 11:25, stoneunhinged wrote: "Although few people realize it, the horse was the backbone of the Civil War. Horses moved guns and ambulances, carried generals and messages, and usually gave all they had. An instruction from Major General William T. Sherman to his troops shows the value of the horse to the army: "Every opportunity at a halt during a march should be taken advantage of to cut grass, wheat, or oats and extraordinary care be taken of the horses upon which everything depends." The total number of horses and mules killed in the Civil War mounts up to more than one million. In the beginning of the war, more horses were being killed than men. The number killed at the Battle of Gettysburg totaled around 1,500. The Union lost 881 horses and mules, and the Confederacy lost 619. It is the great misfortune of horses that they can be saddle-broken and tamed. If the horse was more like an ox, not suited for riding, the war would have been drastically different. But no matter what the horses were put through, they soldiered on. Whether plodding through choking dust, struggling through mud, rushing up to a position at a gallop, or creeping backward in a fighting withdrawal, the horses always did what they had to do. They served their masters." The Horse in the Civil War. Brian
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Thanks for that information, Brian.
More than a million horses--it's truly a remarkable number. And frightening, too. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
The history of animal heroes is inspiring, not frightening. There have been many celebrated canine heroes, many more who are unknown to all but their handlers. Stubby, Chips, and Nemo, to mention only three.
How about the pigeons who flew life-saving messages ac......my fire? Quote:
Probably the most famous of all the carrier pigeons was one named Cher Ami, two French words meaning "Dear Friend". Cher Ami several months on the front lines during the Fall of 1918. He flew 12 important missions to deliver messages. Perhaps the most important was the message he carried on October 4, 1918. Domesticated animals are part of our everyday lives, part of our economic life, and part of our emotional life. It is only natural that they should join with us in our struggles. Particularly in the case of canines. The canine was undoubtedly domesticated before any of the prey animals. (In fact, I think it was the canine that domesticated the human, and not the other way around! But that is another story.) When packs of canine and hominid hunters joined forces to cooperate across species lines, rather than compete against each other for the large prey of the paleolithic period, hominids became humans and wolves became dogs. It is only natural that those who hunted together would join together to defend their territories, their families, and their way of life. The celebrated Chips, a GSD-collie-husky mix who captured a German machine-gun emplacement by himself, and who was awarded the Military Order of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star, and the Distinguished Service Cross (before those awards were rescinded by Pentagon brass) was allowed to retire and spend his later years with the Wren family of Pleasantville, New York, who had loaned him to the army. It is sad that of all the dogs who served in Viet Nam, only 204 were returned to the USA, and none were returned to civilian life. I think the Armed Services do a better job of that now. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
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On 2011-09-30 12:12, Woland wrote: Woland, normally you and I are on the same team. But what I just cited above is bizarre. Surely you don't think that these animals are "deciding" to "hunt" with us? Bizarre! I tell you. Bizarre! My dog always thinks he's taking ME on the hunt, rather than the other way around. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
I think your dog is right, in an ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny sort of way.
Wolves are not dogs, and australopithecenes were not human beings. When wolves saw that it was to their advantage to join forces with hominids, hominids no longer had to develop better hearing, better seeing, and better smelling; they could develop their minds, their language, and their tool-making abilities. The partnership with canines allowed (enabled) hominids to become men (are we not men?) It's not too difficult to see why the abilities of a wolf or a dog would be useful to a band of human hunters. But what abilities did hominids have that attracted the canines? I think it was lethality. A hominid armed with a fire-sharpened spear or a club or a snare greatly augmented the lethality of a hunting pack of wolves. That lethality has been developed a million-fold since those early days, but so have many other human faculties. But what faculties has the dog developed as a result of this mutual domestication? I would say that the dog gained participation in the human cultural and spiritual enterprise. That as much as have hundreds of generations of anonymous, illiterate, human toilers, the anonymous dogs that enabled the emergence of human society have a share in the cosmic benefits that accrue to the creators of Angkor Wat, Chartres, Borobudur, Mozart, Faure, Canteloube, Pindar, Bertrand de Born, Dante, Vasily Grossman, Vermeer of Delft, Leibniz, Husserl, and so on. You can make your own list. Had wolves/dogs not adopted us, it would not have happened. Yes, it was a choice. It was a decision. It was made long ago. It was irrevocable. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Now there is actually a story of war dogs that I find very sad. The Soviets designed a bomb-pack to be fitted on a dog. It was equipped with a switch pointing up from the dog's back. The idea was that the dogs were trained to react to the sounds and sights of battle by running under German tanks to blow them up. Of course the dogs would be killed, too. The problem was, it seems, that the dogs were trained to run under Russian tanks, and when push came to shove, that's what many of them did. So the Soviets were hoist on their own petard.
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Out of the first group of 30 dogs, only four managed to detonate their bombs near the German tanks, inflicting an unknown amount of damage. Six exploded upon returning to the Soviet trenches, killing and injuring soldiers.[3] Three dogs were shot by German troops and taken away, despite furious attempts by the Soviets to prevent this, which provided examples of the detonation mechanism to the Germans. A captured German officer later reported that they learned of the anti-tank dog design from the killed animals, and considered the program desperate and inefficient. A German propaganda campaign sought to discredit the Soviet Army, saying that Soviet soldiers refuse to fight and send dogs instead. Quote:
The German forces knew about the Soviet dogs from 1941 onwards, and so took measures to defend against them. An armored vehicle's top-mounted machine gun proved ineffective due to the relatively small size of the attackers as the dogs were too low to the ground and because of the dog's speed and the difficulty in spotting them. Consequently, every German soldier received orders to shoot any dog in combat areas. Just another example of Soviet cruelty and desperation, I guess. And altogether different, I should hasten to add, from the canine program described in the link in the original post. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On 2011-09-30 10:58, panlives wrote: Death, destruction, madness. This is what we put our money to, whether it be men women children or animals.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Professor Glenn Reynolds, commenting on the death penalty, put it this way:
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The worst argument against the death penalty, of course, is that it’s somehow awful for the state to kill people. Nation-states are all about killing people. They exist solely because they’re better at that, on a large scale, than any other form of human organization. Everything else is superstructure, and if they lose that edge it will fade away. Think about it. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
I don't think that's the sole reason that nation-states exist, but it has been a while since I had anthro.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
I'd rather talk about dogs, but I think that Professor Reynolds makes a reasonable point.
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
No yeah it's a good point, I was just mincing semantics. Not a big thing.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Many of the other functions assumed by the nation-state can be accomplished by other political constructs. So why has the nation-state supplanted those other constructs? What do nation-states do better than other political constructs?
Killing is one thing. I would say that maintaining a controlled membrane between the interior and exterior is another. The nation-state appears to be the right size, too -- bigger than the clan or neighborhood, smaller than the empire or continent. To return to our sheep, as it were, dogs never evolved a social structure bigger than the family. I don't think they even have clans, on their own. But I could be wrong about that. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
I have read that canine remains are never found in Neanderthal burial sites. That's why, I think, Cro Magnon man replaced the Neanderthal.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
From the article mentioned in the O.P. -
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Generally, the canine teeth (the four longest and most noticeable teeth) are the most commonly replaced teeth because they allow the animal to grip and tear through material (including body armor) without injury to itself. However, as one canine training specialist pointed out to Wired, titanium fangs are not as stable as regular teeth and are "much more likely to come out during a biting." One of my !@#$%es (will that word survive the posting process?) lost a canine that "came out" while she was fighting the other one, despite the fact that the other one hardly had a scratch. I think she may have caught it on her rival's collar, or something else in the house. I hadn't thought of replacing it, after all, there have to be consequences, but then I didn't know about titatnium teeth before. So that gives me something to think about . . . . (It didn't survive. Should have just said one of my girls, or one of my females . . . ) |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
I think one thing that we can all agree on is that scottish terriers are the best of all dog breeds.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16557 Posts |
I don't think its a good idea showing that as it seems to me that tactic will soon be learned and used by the enemy if it hasn't already.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Well, I have not most of the above posts or the article in the original post, but from the thread title I can only assume that you are discussing amphibious canines?
So, personally, I think seal-dogs are way cool.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
According to the Wikipedia, seals are not dogs, but rather bears:
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Recent molecular evidence suggests that pinnipeds evolved from a bearlike ancestor about 23 million years ago during the late Oligocene or early Miocene epochs, a transitional period between the warmer Paleogene and cooler Neogene period. The earliest fossil pinniped that has been found is Puijila darwini, of about 23 million years ago. Pujilla had heavy limbs, indicative of upright movement on land, and flattened phalanges, indicating they were probably webbed, but not yet flippers. The discovery of Pujilla in northern Canada strongly suggests pinnipeds originated in the Arctic. Unless you mean selkies . . . |