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The Magic Cafe Forum Index :: Not very magical, still... :: I am so conflicted about Navy SEAL dogs (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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panlives
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I am so torn on this one...part of me is fired up because we drag other species into our own internecine global madness; and another part of me says, "Anything that helps our Troops come home alive is a good thing."

Thoughts?

http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/gadgets-el......eal-dogs
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-09-30 10:58, panlives wrote:
...another part of me says, "Anything that helps our Troops come home alive is a good thing."


I agree with both parts of you. Smile

Meanwhile we Americans should get as politically involved as possible to keep our troops out of danger in the first place. We need to re-assess war and its necessity--or lack thereof. That re-assessment should include our use of animals.

I wonder if anyone has ever calculated how many horses were lost in the Civil War?

War sucks, and it sucks so badly that the United States--which has built the most incredible war machine ever in history, but still gets bogged down in places in the world where our soldier's blood is being spent on a freedom for others that never comes--needs to stop being a country of war and to become a country of peace.

Just how we can do that is something that escapes me. But now is the time, and greater minds than mine need to engage themselves on this topic a lot more than measuring the speed of neutrinos. It is the most pressing topic of American life.

My nephew (the one that did a tour in Iraq as a lowly grunt) has just received his commission and is now an officer. I am proud and terrified at the same time.
bblumen
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Quote:
On 2011-09-30 11:25, stoneunhinged wrote:

I wonder if anyone has ever calculated how many horses were lost in the Civil War?




"Although few people realize it, the horse was the backbone of the Civil War. Horses moved guns and ambulances, carried generals and messages, and usually gave all they had. An instruction from Major General William T. Sherman to his troops shows the value of the horse to the army:

"Every opportunity at a halt during a march should be taken advantage of to cut grass, wheat, or oats and extraordinary care be taken of the horses upon which everything depends."

The total number of horses and mules killed in the Civil War mounts up to more than one million. In the beginning of the war, more horses were being killed than men. The number killed at the Battle of Gettysburg totaled around 1,500. The Union lost 881 horses and mules, and the Confederacy lost 619.

It is the great misfortune of horses that they can be saddle-broken and tamed. If the horse was more like an ox, not suited for riding, the war would have been drastically different. But no matter what the horses were put through, they soldiered on. Whether plodding through choking dust, struggling through mud, rushing up to a position at a gallop, or creeping backward in a fighting withdrawal, the horses always did what they had to do. They served their masters."

The Horse in the Civil War.


Brian
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
stoneunhinged
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Thanks for that information, Brian.

More than a million horses--it's truly a remarkable number. And frightening, too.
Woland
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The history of animal heroes is inspiring, not frightening. There have been many celebrated canine heroes, many more who are unknown to all but their handlers. Stubby, Chips, and Nemo, to mention only three.

How about the pigeons who flew life-saving messages ac......my fire?

Quote:
Probably the most famous of all the carrier pigeons was one named Cher Ami, two French words meaning "Dear Friend". Cher Ami several months on the front lines during the Fall of 1918. He flew 12 important missions to deliver messages. Perhaps the most important was the message he carried on October 4, 1918.

Mr. Charles Whittlesey was a lawyer in New York, but when the United States called for soldiers to help France regain its freedom, Whittlesey joined the Army and went to Europe to help. He was made the commander of a battalion of soldiers in the 77th Infantry Division, known as "The Liberty Division" because most of the men came from New York and wore a bright blue patch on their shoulders that had on it the STATUE OF LIBERTY.

On October 3, 1918 Major Whittlesey and more than 500 men were trapped in a small depression on the side of the hill. Surrounded by enemy soldiers, many were killed and wounded in the first day. By the second day only a little more than 200 men were still alive or unwounded.

Major Whittlesey sent out several pigeons to tell his commanders where he was, and how bad the trap was. The next afternoon he had only one pigeon left, Cher Ami.

During the afternoon the American Artillery tried to send some protection by firing hundreds of big artillery rounds into the ravine where the Germans surrounded Major Whittlesey and his men. Unfortunately, the American commanders didn't know exactly where the American soldiers were, and started dropping the big shells right on top of them. It was a horrible situation that might have resulted in Major Whittlesey and all his men getting killed--by their own army.

Major Whittlesey called for his last pigeon, Cher Ami. He wrote a quick and simple note, telling the men who directed the artillery guns where the Americans were located and asking them to stop. The note that was put in the canister on Cher Ami's left leg simply said:

"We are along the road parallel to 276.4.
"Our own artillery is dropping a barrage directly on us.
"For heaven's sake, stop it."

As Cher Ami tried to fly back home, the Germans saw him rising out of the brush and opened fire. For several minutes, bullets zipped through the air all around him. For a minute it looked like the little pigeon was going to fall, that he wasn't going to make it. The doomed American infantrymen were crushed, their last home was plummeting to earth against a very heavy attack from German bullets.

Somehow Cher Ami managed to spread his wings and start climbing again, higher and higher beyond the range of the enemy guns. The little bird flew 25 miles in only 25 minutes to deliver his message. The shelling stopped, and more than 200 American lives were saved...all because the little bird would never quit trying.

On his last mission, Cher Ami was badly wounded. When he finally reached his coop, he could fly no longer, and the soldier that answered the sound of the bell found the little bird laying on his back, covered in blood. He had been blinded in one eye, and a bullet had hit his breastbone, making a hole the size of a quarter. From that awful hole, hanging by just a few tendons, was the almost severed leg of the brave little bird. Attached to that leg was a silver canister, with the all-important message. Once again, Cher Ami wouldn't quit until he had finished his job.

Cher Ami became the hero of the 77th Infantry Division, and the medics worked long and hard to patch him up. When the French soldiers that the Americans were fighting to help learned they story of Cher Ami's bravery and determination, they gave him one of their own country's great honors. Cher Ami, the brave carrier pigeon was presented a medal called the French Croix de guerre with a palm leaf.


Domesticated animals are part of our everyday lives, part of our economic life, and part of our emotional life. It is only natural that they should join with us in our struggles.

Particularly in the case of canines. The canine was undoubtedly domesticated before any of the prey animals. (In fact, I think it was the canine that domesticated the human, and not the other way around! But that is another story.) When packs of canine and hominid hunters joined forces to cooperate across species lines, rather than compete against each other for the large prey of the paleolithic period, hominids became humans and wolves became dogs. It is only natural that those who hunted together would join together to defend their territories, their families, and their way of life.

The celebrated Chips, a GSD-collie-husky mix who captured a German machine-gun emplacement by himself, and who was awarded the Military Order of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star, and the Distinguished Service Cross (before those awards were rescinded by Pentagon brass) was allowed to retire and spend his later years with the Wren family of Pleasantville, New York, who had loaned him to the army.

It is sad that of all the dogs who served in Viet Nam, only 204 were returned to the USA, and none were returned to civilian life. I think the Armed Services do a better job of that now.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-09-30 12:12, Woland wrote:
When packs of canine and hominid hunters joined forces to cooperate across species lines, rather than compete against each other for the large prey of the paleolithic period, hominids became humans and wolves became dogs. It is only natural that those who hunted together would join together to defend their territories, their families, and their way of life.


Woland, normally you and I are on the same team. But what I just cited above is bizarre.

Surely you don't think that these animals are "deciding" to "hunt" with us? Bizarre! I tell you. Bizarre!

My dog always thinks he's taking ME on the hunt, rather than the other way around.
Woland
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I think your dog is right, in an ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny sort of way.

Wolves are not dogs, and australopithecenes were not human beings.

When wolves saw that it was to their advantage to join forces with hominids, hominids no longer had to develop better hearing, better seeing, and better smelling; they could develop their minds, their language, and their tool-making abilities. The partnership with canines allowed (enabled) hominids to become men (are we not men?)

It's not too difficult to see why the abilities of a wolf or a dog would be useful to a band of human hunters. But what abilities did hominids have that attracted the canines?

I think it was lethality. A hominid armed with a fire-sharpened spear or a club or a snare greatly augmented the lethality of a hunting pack of wolves.

That lethality has been developed a million-fold since those early days, but so have many other human faculties. But what faculties has the dog developed as a result of this mutual domestication? I would say that the dog gained participation in the human cultural and spiritual enterprise. That as much as have hundreds of generations of anonymous, illiterate, human toilers, the anonymous dogs that enabled the emergence of human society have a share in the cosmic benefits that accrue to the creators of Angkor Wat, Chartres, Borobudur, Mozart, Faure, Canteloube, Pindar, Bertrand de Born, Dante, Vasily Grossman, Vermeer of Delft, Leibniz, Husserl, and so on. You can make your own list. Had wolves/dogs not adopted us, it would not have happened.

Yes, it was a choice. It was a decision. It was made long ago. It was irrevocable.
Woland
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Now there is actually a story of war dogs that I find very sad. The Soviets designed a bomb-pack to be fitted on a dog. It was equipped with a switch pointing up from the dog's back. The idea was that the dogs were trained to react to the sounds and sights of battle by running under German tanks to blow them up. Of course the dogs would be killed, too. The problem was, it seems, that the dogs were trained to run under Russian tanks, and when push came to shove, that's what many of them did. So the Soviets were hoist on their own petard.

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Out of the first group of 30 dogs, only four managed to detonate their bombs near the German tanks, inflicting an unknown amount of damage. Six exploded upon returning to the Soviet trenches, killing and injuring soldiers.[3] Three dogs were shot by German troops and taken away, despite furious attempts by the Soviets to prevent this, which provided examples of the detonation mechanism to the Germans. A captured German officer later reported that they learned of the anti-tank dog design from the killed animals, and considered the program desperate and inefficient. A German propaganda campaign sought to discredit the Soviet Army, saying that Soviet soldiers refuse to fight and send dogs instead.

Another serious training mistake was later revealed; the Soviets used their own diesel-engine tanks to train the dogs rather than German tanks which had gasoline engines. As the dogs relied on their acute sense of smell, the dogs sought out familiar Soviet tanks instead of strange-smelling German tanks.


Quote:
The German forces knew about the Soviet dogs from 1941 onwards, and so took measures to defend against them. An armored vehicle's top-mounted machine gun proved ineffective due to the relatively small size of the attackers as the dogs were too low to the ground and because of the dog's speed and the difficulty in spotting them. Consequently, every German soldier received orders to shoot any dog in combat areas.

The hostility of German soldiers and officers to the dogs is mentioned in the semi-fictional novel Kaputt by Curzio Malaparte. As an Italian correspondent on the Eastern front during 1941–42, Malaparte recounted how one of the German soldiers' first tasks upon entering and occupying villages in Ukraine was to seek out and kill any dog on sight.



Just another example of Soviet cruelty and desperation, I guess. And altogether different, I should hasten to add, from the canine program described in the link in the original post.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-09-30 10:58, panlives wrote:
I am so torn on this one...part of me is fired up because we drag other species into our own internecine global madness; and another part of me says, "Anything that helps our Troops come home alive is a good thing."

Thoughts?

http://www.mnn.com/green-tech/gadgets-el......eal-dogs

Death, destruction, madness. This is what we put our money to, whether it be men women children or animals.
Woland
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Professor Glenn Reynolds, commenting on the death penalty, put it this way:

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The worst argument against the death penalty, of course, is that it’s somehow awful for the state to kill people. Nation-states are all about killing people. They exist solely because they’re better at that, on a large scale, than any other form of human organization. Everything else is superstructure, and if they lose that edge it will fade away.


Think about it.
critter
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I don't think that's the sole reason that nation-states exist, but it has been a while since I had anthro.
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Woland
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I'd rather talk about dogs, but I think that Professor Reynolds makes a reasonable point.
critter
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No yeah it's a good point, I was just mincing semantics. Not a big thing.
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Woland
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Many of the other functions assumed by the nation-state can be accomplished by other political constructs. So why has the nation-state supplanted those other constructs? What do nation-states do better than other political constructs?

Killing is one thing. I would say that maintaining a controlled membrane between the interior and exterior is another. The nation-state appears to be the right size, too -- bigger than the clan or neighborhood, smaller than the empire or continent.

To return to our sheep, as it were, dogs never evolved a social structure bigger than the family. I don't think they even have clans, on their own. But I could be wrong about that.
Woland
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I have read that canine remains are never found in Neanderthal burial sites. That's why, I think, Cro Magnon man replaced the Neanderthal.
Woland
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From the article mentioned in the O.P. -

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Generally, the canine teeth (the four longest and most noticeable teeth) are the most commonly replaced teeth because they allow the animal to grip and tear through material (including body armor) without injury to itself. However, as one canine training specialist pointed out to Wired, titanium fangs are not as stable as regular teeth and are "much more likely to come out during a biting."


One of my !@#$%es (will that word survive the posting process?) lost a canine that "came out" while she was fighting the other one, despite the fact that the other one hardly had a scratch. I think she may have caught it on her rival's collar, or something else in the house. I hadn't thought of replacing it, after all, there have to be consequences, but then I didn't know about titatnium teeth before. So that gives me something to think about . . . .

(It didn't survive. Should have just said one of my girls, or one of my females . . . )
critter
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I think one thing that we can all agree on is that scottish terriers are the best of all dog breeds.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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tommy
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I don't think its a good idea showing that as it seems to me that tactic will soon be learned and used by the enemy if it hasn't already.
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Well, I have not most of the above posts or the article in the original post, but from the thread title I can only assume that you are discussing amphibious canines?

So, personally, I think seal-dogs are way cool.
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Woland
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According to the Wikipedia, seals are not dogs, but rather bears:

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Recent molecular evidence suggests that pinnipeds evolved from a bearlike ancestor about 23 million years ago during the late Oligocene or early Miocene epochs, a transitional period between the warmer Paleogene and cooler Neogene period. The earliest fossil pinniped that has been found is Puijila darwini, of about 23 million years ago. Pujilla had heavy limbs, indicative of upright movement on land, and flattened phalanges, indicating they were probably webbed, but not yet flippers. The discovery of Pujilla in northern Canada strongly suggests pinnipeds originated in the Arctic.


Unless you mean selkies . . .