It's funny, I remember as a kid hanging out at the local magic shop. I mean, those cases of goodies were what dreams are made of!



I would go there and stand for hours. It was my favorite place. The best part was the fellow who had the store, I think his name was Bill, was always ever so helpful.



After you purchased an effect, he always guided you to the corner of the store, and let you in on the secret. Then he would go over the effect.



Often, I would go home, and still wouldn't quite understand the workings. But you know, the next day, there was Bill, waiting to lend a helping hand. I miss that.



These days, it's do some research, then off to your favorite magic store site.



I was wondering what your thoughts were on this.

My fear is that magic is becoming less communal by the day.



Sign of the times?





About to change



TC

Steve,

From a cyber dealer’s veiwpoint...



When I was first thinking of opening a magic shop I agonized over opening a Brick and Mortar or just take it to the World through the Internet. I once had a friend who owns a magic shop (opened on a dare from another dealer). I have watched him stress out day and night owning a very expensive "Magic Hangout".



Steve, you are one of the true blue few who understands the economics of magic. Unfortunately most magicians don’t, and they wouldn’t care if they did. They believe that when a shop owner opens a shop that it becomes community property and their own personal library.



I’ve spent hours at my former friend’s shop and seen people come and hang out and rip open books (because I don’t know if I want to buy it till I see what’s inside it) - then I’ve seen these idiots take out pen and paper and copy full routines right out of these books), riffle through bins of props like pigs at a trough, and spend countless hours making this guy dig out and perform effect after effect and never buy a thing. ...And these are the so called "Professionals". The amatuers and hobbiests are even worse. I couldn’t do it. I’d make too many enemies too fast as I rode them out on a rail.



That guy makes 90% of his income through internet sales and by performing shows. Another shop owner I know make 95% of his years income in October (RENTING COSTUMES)and he has a big magic shop. I never visited a magic shop and took up the guy’s time if I wasn’t ready to spend at least $100.00.



But instead of paying for the priveledge of having a Brick and Mortar shop to go to in the first place, I continually read posts on the internet about how the prices are too high and how they are upset because the shop owner didn’t demo every new item that came out that week.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! It’s you that has the responsibility to keep the shop open. Do you know how many new effects come out in a month?



It is impossible at best to demo every item that comes out. These shops are PLACES OF BUSINESS! NOT A MAGIC CLUB! We are here trying to make a living. We’re not out here trying to take advantage of anyone. We’re just trying to feed our families and I don’t know of one shop owner, Brick and Mortar or otherwise that is able to do that through the sale of magic to the magic community.



I hope the magic community as a whole wakes up and saves the Brick and Mortar, but I’m not betting on it. I’ll stay here in cyberspace and make my one or two sales a week. It’s safer and less stressful.

Just my 2 Drakma Worth,

Doug Byrd

Magic Shop Owner and Tractor Trailer Driver (I have to do something to pay the bills)



_________________

Yesterday is gone and tomorrow may never come, so live life to the fullest this very minute and leave with no regrets.

The Vanishing Art

http://www.thevanishingart.com/store/index.html

I think that both have their advantages. If you look at the back of the latest Genii magazine (September issue), you'll see an advertisement for Denny and Lee Magic Studios. They have a good point. Sometimes it is better to see the props and see their execution for buying. But for utility items (mouth coils, hat tears etc...) the internet seems like the better decision because without the overhead of "brick-and-mortar" shops most internet magic stores are a lot cheaper. Basically, if you are willing to pay extra for the personal service (which most do) then go for it. But when personal help isn't needed, internet stores are better.

To give you an idea of how "some" people think, I have heard stories (I know several magic shop owners) about young magicians ordering items off the net, then either bringing those items into the shops asking for help, or showing the shop owners the new goodies they got in the mail.



And the problem is, it's not just magic. I have a friend who owns a computer store.

Time and time again, folks will order a computer from a "Discount" place, then come in his store, expecting him to help them with software and tech problems.



People are people. They want the "support", but more often than not, they do not wish to pay for it, this includes obtaining "secrets" and "methods".



But thankfully, not everyone is like that.

There really is some good folks still walking our planet, and like a beautiful flower, they stick out amongst all the surrounding weeds.

Millennium Magic Co is a small magic company we set up 6 months ago. At present we are putting together our web site because in todays economic climate, it is a must have tool. Most of our customers buy off the net but are now asking us if we can get things for them.



The internet is great for advertising but people still like to see the thing for real and not just a picture.



We do get some who hang around for 2 or 3 hours just wanting a free show but when we want to get them out of the way, we just tell them the free show is over and stop demming.



As a dealer in England, we know that you people in the U.S.A. will buy from your local dealer which means we can give you an honest reveiw of an effect without it looking like a sales pitch. This I will try to do if I feel an item is of interest to you so please as they say, "Watch this space".



_________________

All the best

Cliff

Thanks for joining in Cliff! I look forward to seeing your thoughts and views on magic items in our "The Good, the bad, and the garbage" forum.

Personally, I wish there were more brick and mortar types. There’s something that you can’t replicate with the web, and that is a sense of "atmosphere".



I wish in my area (where we have no magic shop) there were a select group of magicians that would, price or not, support and encourage local and loyal support of a magic shop.



Even though you might pay more, there are the intangibles, that to me, make it worth it.



First, you are ensuring that at least locally, the shop will stay open. Second, you ensure that there will always be "that place" to go and talk shop, or meet with other magic lovers (as opposed to once a month at the local club, if you are fortunate to belong to one.



The chance for meeting, interacting, special sessions, are possible in brick and mortar shops. The proprieter is in many cases, "one of the guys" and the others support him and recognize the products, services and "environment" that is there.



Alas the "shop" is a dying institution, if they exist, in many cases it becomes a mishmash of Clown supplies, joke and gag items(!) and costumes.



Pure magic shops are few and far between and growing more extinct every day.



Are a few dollars more a product worth the benefit in the long run? I think so, but I might be in the minority...



My 2 cents (one of them is copper the other silver)

You have made some really good point Sean,

too bad others don't think like you.



It's very difficult to find a shop that sells only magic. Only larger cities like New York can support one.



I know several shop owners, and the jokes, gags, and clown supplies you speak of is what pays their rent, thus insuring the magic portion can remain active.

As a UK consumer, I have to say that it's wonderful to have so many US sites with so much more than is on offer over here. Also, often but not always, the price is lower - although postage is a B*&!££!*. I just ordered a prop at two thirds of its price here. Having said that, I love to visit dealers at conventions, and there is indeed no substitute for that. On the whole I've found magic shops here a disappointment - small and overpriced.

For those of us in Northern Ireland the Internet has come as a real ’boon’ as there isn’t a single Magic Shop here, the nearest small business being in Dublin!

At last we can order magic which in the past we could only see at Conventions or by traveling to the UK and even then the range was limited.

Long live Magic in cyberspace!!



_________________

Wallace B

I buy a lot of magic and without the web I would not be able to buy anymore ... there is no single dealer that carries enough good items that I want to buy.



The web makes it fairly easy to find things. However, I still only buy from dealers on the web in any quantity once I have built up a relationship with them. I have wasted $10,000’s literally on magic effects that were either crap or certainly not suited to my style. Going to a real store or convention mitigates a lot of the mistakes.



But if you live in a small town (I live in Austin which has over a million people) there are no even half way decent magic stores around for 100’s of miles. So even if you don’t use the web you are restricted to mail order. I think the web, done right, is much better than traditional mail order.



Of course that leads into the other problem, many on-line magic stores are poor. The good ones often advertise stuff they don’t have, but even though it should be easy to say so on the website they don’t. There are some well run web stores that actually make finding and buying magic easy. Though I feel these are in the minority.



I grew up in the UK and would make a trip once or twice a year to International Magic in London, plus I would go to the IBM convention every other year. That was great, but how do you keep an addiction going when you can only buy two or three times a year. I like to find and buy something every week, if I have the cash!



The facelessness of the web makes it easy for unscrupulous dealers to set up shop for very little cost. But to be honest I seem to remember that before the web there were a lot of unscrupulous dealers anyway.



So all in all, if you are near a big dealer then count yourself lucky and visit often and buy often! If you don’t live near one then the web should be the next best thing. I try to only buy from dealers who are honest, and if everyone did that, instead of trying always to get the cheapest deal, maybe more bad dealers would go out of business or be forced to shape up. Either way we win.



_________________

Andy Martin’s Magic (andy@martinsmagic.com)

Magic, Mirth, & Mystery for Select Occasions

http://martinsmagic.com

http://qualitymagic.com

A very good point of view, thanks for contributing, and welcome to the Cafe!





_________________

Life is not a problem to be solved...

but a mystery to be lived.

I live around the Chicago area. There are about 7 million people in the Chicago metro region, and I would estimate that there are about 5 magic shops of any real depth.

I know in smaller towns, forget it. I have seen magic shops close in Illinois, and even Las Vegas for lack of revenue. The internet will accelerate this trend, and more will close. Is this good? I can’t see how it is. For folks in smaller places, it’s great. For larger metro regions, it means that the local shops are under an even bigger pressure to fold. I see it as sad, because without exception the owners of magic stores I have met are great folks.



It’s a little like the Walmart effect.

The internet will indeed drive out the independent stores eventually, unless the local magicians are loyal. (truth: even I have purchased stuff on the Internet, but I try to support my local store). So, I guess I am a hypocrite for crying about the loss of the smaller guys.

Magic is a very specialized field and has a limited customer base.



I live in Houston and there is only one real magic store and it’s main business is costumes. They have a good selection of magic stuff, books, videos, etc and the staff is pretty knowledgeable. (There is a small ’fun’ shop near where I live but their main income stream is also costumes and gags. Small magic inventory). There is one real magic store in Dallas as well.



I’ve been to several brick stores around the country and enjoy browsing as well as anyone. I do like to see things demonstrated before I donate cash. The demo is a main advantage of brick stores. But there are many sites that now have movies of effects.. JB TV and magicsmith come to mind as well as allmagic.com so even that advantage is waning. And Dick Stoner has his mail order catalog on videotape--where he demos every product.



The real advantage of brick stores is that you can get something NOW. Usually taxes wash out the shipping charges from web stores.



I think we will see the storefronts remain... especially those that also have web ordering-- Daytona Magic, Denny $ Lee’s, Hank Lee, Showplace Magic, etc., etc. These stores will survive because they have the web access as well as the storefont.



When I travel I never miss an opportunity to visit a magic store and have always enjoyed the visit.



All of the storefronts are not going away--they still have a purpose. But the web is the way people do business these days and the smart retailers are the ones that combine both.



We will continue to patronize both because not every store can stock every item.









_________________

Ray Banks

Thanks for joining in Ray, your point of view is very insightful...and I believe true.

Call me a techno geek, but I think the internet and online stores have the potential to provide a much better service for the customer than a brick and mortar shop. Not that I don’t like the shop as a meeting point for magicians. I have witnessed a great shop community in Tokyo at Magicland - it was wonderful. But a shop for me should be a place where I can buy from a great variety of products for low prices.



And the internet allows me to very efficiently hunt for the lowest prices or find new products faster and more conveniently than otherwise. There still needs to be a lot of improvements to online shops. Video clips is one good trend, but even the layout of the store front, searching, and categorizing has to be improved.



Together with email and communities like Magic Cafe one can get almost instant answers to questions and receive a lot of input.



And most importantly, the internet is the only place where I can communicate with people around the world, from Australia, Japan, Europe, South America, US, ... who share the same interests. In a local shop you have a handful of guys and that’s it.



And last but not least an online shop can provide us with lower prices because of their reduced fixed cost and larger customer base.



Chris....



_________________

Lybrary.com preserving magic one book at a time.

So, who shows you the minute details of a handling you don't quite get?

Who tells you when you are telegraphing something and that is why a routine isn't working for you?

Who brings in the lecturers so you can learn first hand from the masters?



The lifelessness of Internet commerce is the price you pay for saving a few bucks.



Tom Cutts

After reading these posts, I realize how fortunate I am to live in an area with two magic shops -- one of which is dedicated to magic 100%. Floor to ceiling and inside of and on top of every display case -- Magic!

I also know that without those shops I may not even be involved in the art today. They provided a place where I could go and meet other magicians and see the "wonders" of the universe (well the magical universe anyway).

However, I do understand those who don’t wish to run a business from a literal store-front. It takes a special person to make a go of it in a business that may only have a few hundred customers in a given area. You have to be very diplomatic (or have another source of income). Those who run the store-front magic shops become very integral in the magic scene. Their store becomes a hub. Therefore, the magic store owner needs to be part business man and part magic enthusiast -- friendly, but able to set limits. "Wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove" is a quote that comes to mind.


Scott O.

I think I would freak if I did not have a local magic shop here in Toronto (there are two but only one really friendly one).

As a kid I never "hung out" there but I certainly went every month or so... just to look at the "stuff" and imagine that I had it all (the ultimate dream). It was run by Len Cooper who used to work for Tannen’s in New York. He would show me any trick I wanted to see and occasionally I would buy one (I had a limited income being 12 and all).

Today I am lucky that the store has moved and is about a 10 minute drive from my home. It was bought by a younger guy who has carried on the tradition nicely but also has extended into the web with a half decent site with demos and a discussion area.

A smart business move - he books great lecturers and has an auction (not his stuff but what customers bring in) twice a year.. anniversary parties... lots of stuff to support magic in the community - smart guy and a nice guy to boot.

I have a one year old kid and I hope the store is still around when he is a bit older so I can take him in - that will be fun.

Today I actually buy most of my stuff on ebay but most of what I buy is used/older/collectable, stuff I cannot get at my local shop. But when there is something new out there... I head to the shop.. get my demo and if I like what I see buy it there... Jeff, who runs the shop gives alot to the community so I actually feel good buying from him knowing that in some way I am helping to keep it alive.


Mitch