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MarcelR Regular user Cologne, Germany 148 Posts 
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Thanks for answering Michael, you are right and this is not the real point about crediting. I mixed up two points, but my feeling is a more structured would be a nice thing.
Even more so when now some people show sleights and do not even name correctly. I am aware that there is history behind all these names, but if this is lost and someone invents new names for old moves it will not be better. I am also aware that it is probably impossible to realize. About crediting: Let's tell me a little story: I came up with a Palm myself, that is so simple that I couldn't understand why it wasn't shown in any beginner tutorial. I got the idea from the Purse Palm that Ian Kendall shows (without crediting), so I considered it a variant. But it also has similarities to another sleight that everyone here knows. Unfortunately, I don't have access to all the sources related to these two sleights in the Conjuring Archive, but I'm pretty sure I won't find "my" move there. If I were one of those attention-seeking social media kids, I could have easily posted a tutorial without feeling bad. Finally I asked Danny Goldsmith and he gave me the hint about Sly Palm. The interesting thing about it is, that it's really just a small variation, but what Rick did with it justifies it being classified as a new Palm, in my opinion. But you can also see it differently. Another point: If I hadn't been so sure that I didn't invent this move, I could have easily believed it (at a time when I thought I was a capable coin magician). And if I wanted, could I post a tutorial? With no reference to Rick and without his applications it's not a big thing and after all, I came up with it myself. Would I credit this to Rick, I would give away a secret. Of course I will do nothing of the sort. Let's consruct an example: I develop a Retention Vanish: How would I even have the possibility to check if nobody has published it? There are countless. I might even have a hard time figuring out whose idea inspired me to do it. P.S. The Conjuring Archive has 25 entries on Sly Palm, none of which mention Rick although he even has a written release in Trip. How could somebody keep track of all this releases? Is this discussion mostly on the "old classics"? |
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Rick Holcombe Special user 624 Posts
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On Aug 19, 2023, MarcelR wrote: This is a good example for the importance of crediting. My Sly Palm technique was an independent discovery. I later came to learn Dr. Rubinstein previously published ideas with this exact grip, he calls Pistol Grip. I was able to alter the crediting in the official Sly Palm tutorial from Copeland Coins. I also felt that I had created so many additional and unique ideas with it, that I didn't change the name. This is an absolute staple in my coin magic. As for another magician referenced, he is absolutely one of the most talented and creative coin guys, but he is not a knowledgable STUDENT of coin magic or magic history in general. I have come in contact with many people who have learned from him who now miscredit or flat out have learned made up names for things. There is no Masque Palm, it's Downs Palm, there is no DeManche Palm, it's Frickel Palm. This is why crediting is important. |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4691 Posts
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Uhhh, you might want to credit me as the originator of that. It is called Side Grip. It was taught at the NYCMS in 2006, and appears on volume 4 of the NYCMS DVD series from 2007. Rick was unaware of this when he taught his applications on his video tutorial, but after he contacted me about it he said it would be credited in his download. Since Jeff Copland was putting out the download and selling it, I do not know if this credit was ever inserted. I have all of this information explained in Rubinstein Coin Magic. As I have said before, Rick is a stand up guy, and contacted me as soon as he discovered this. He has done a lot of good work and has novel applications using this position. But please note the correct history. As for the listings of Sly Palm in the archive, I do not know if they describe the same position. Many use the same names in other aspects of magic - cards, balls, etc. Knowing more about what is listed would help shed light on those.
And as for your second point, it is a lot harder to credit new material now because of all the obscure videos and downloads coming out by so many, many with absolutely no crediting, or incorrect crediting. Also, many people will put out a slight variation (and take credit as the originator which is incorrect). A slight variation can be called your variation of the original move, with credit to the originator, but not a new move. To be considered a new move, it has to be different enough (and I understand that this may be subjective) so that it has an original application that can not accomplished by the original position, or necessitates a different way of getting in and out of that position. For example (and this is not the best example), if you do a classic palm but hold it a bit lower in your palm than described, it is just a slight variation of classic palm. If you hold it low enough (like the wrist) so that getting it in and out of position is completely different, or you can show your hand in a way that is different than how you can show your hand with a coin in classic palm, it is a new position. Second finger curl palm (or edge grip) is very different than third finger curl palm (or Nowhere palm). And if someone held the coin in fourth finger curl palm, it would again be different. But if someone, say, tilted the coin in edge grip but it was still held by the second finger and thumb, it is just a variation of edge grip.
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MarcelR Regular user Cologne, Germany 148 Posts
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Thanks for your explanations and background information. I find what you are doing and the amount of sources you both know and the effort you are putting in this is outstanding. Kudos for that. I find the development/history of sleights interesting and I wish there was a standard to which the general community adheres. I don't have the financial and time resources to figure out which name is actually the right one and why.
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On Aug 19, 2023, Rick Holcombe wrote: He says that about himself, too. And actually, he mainly shows his own moves. As far as I remember, he always names the inspiration / the origin. E.g. with Masque, he has justified the name (invented by Masque, made known by Downs). This gave me the impression that there was a discussion on this point. It also seems logical to me to name a sleight after its inventor. Thanks for the clarification. What I have learned in any case: If I ever get the idea to publish a tutorial, I will ask Dr. Rubinstein first... |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4691 Posts
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Hi Rick, looks like we posted at the same time. To make sure there is no misunderstanding here, Rick is one of the good guys in coin magic, and a serious student of the art. He comes up with great material, and always strives to get the credits right.
Bottom line is that none of us knows everything. I have made mistakes in the past as well and do my best to correct them when I discover them. If unsure, I always ask people who are also true students. For my book, I consulted people like Stephen Minch, Mike Gallo, Curtis Kam, and Marc DeSouza, as well as conjuring credits.com, conjuringarchive.com, and my own library. Here is an example. Years ago, I had a discussion with John Born about Balance Palm. I came up with that in the 80s and had it published in my second set of lecture notes. However, you will never find this reference because much later I found it described in a 1942 publication by Eddie Joseph called Coin and Money Magic that predated everyone (the history is in my book). And this is how we all learn. I hope my own book Rubinstein Coin Magic fixes some of the errors in crediting from the past, but even this is an imperfect tome. In the next (5th) edition I plan on adding credits from Vic Trabucco and Sol Stone that I had not found prior to my book's release. So, always try to get it right.
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1827 Posts
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A slight variation can be called your variation of the original move, with credit to the originator, but not a new move. To be considered a new move, it has to be different enough (and I understand that this may be subjective) so that it has an original application that can not accomplished by the original position, or necessitates a different way of getting in and out of that position. I agree with your general sentiment, but will point out that the "subjective" part there is extremely tough to quantify. Is the Liwag subtlety (Ramsay at a slightly different angle) meaningfully different from the original? Is there a meaningful difference from the slight angle change of Mutobe and Vertical Thumb Palm? (I also realize there's Angle Palm, and other history, I don't mean to be calling you out.) I don't want to make a claim about either. The differences in both end up quite similar, but also with different degrees of display and freedom. Very hard to make a strong line. |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4691 Posts
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I have discussed and discussed over and over the proper crediting for Gallo's Modified Finger Palm. Homer Liwag wasn't aware of Gallo, who didn't give it a name btw, and neither was Luis Pedrahita who published it using another name years later (all independent invention, but Gallo's was the first confirmed use). Personally I didn't think the modification was important enough to be given an original name, hence the title "Modified Finger Palm" (and I wager that over time Gallo, who agreed with this history, will get the proper crediting). And yes, I talked to many people who aided in my research, including Homer, Marion, and even Bob Kohler who said he was doing the same thing at about the same time (80s) but never published.
As for Angle (J.C.)Palm, yes, the difference in position of the coin from Mutobe Palm necessitates different ways to get in and out of the position, and is used in different ways. So yes, they are different enough to be called two different things. And there is no 'Vertical Thumb Palm". That was a name coined by Wesley James that was to be used in a work he never published, because he decided to change the name.He had some original applications, but did not come up with the position on his own. If you read the history in Rubinstein Coin Magic, when I came up with the name in the late 70's, as there was no name at the time I could associate with the position. I found that several other magicians over the years had come up independently with their own version, all calling it different things. In my book Intermediate and Advanced Coin Technique I called it Angle palm while crediting all the other magicians, to provide a catch all name that would achknowledge all the other inventors (I explained my reasoning back then in my old book, and I claimed no credit other than my applications). In my continuing research I found that the earliest publication was from Jack Chanin (offhand 1942?), and although it is likely others before him also used that position, in Rubinstein Coin Magic I made a decision to call it Angle (J.C.) Palm so as not to confuse readers who already learned the name Angle Palm from my Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights, yet acknowledging Jack Chanin as the earliest reference (and as I said, there were many other names of people who used the position -including Frank Drobina, Ed Michell Palm, Lamont Ream (who called it the Lamont Grip), each believing the position was original with them. I hope that answers your questions.
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tonsofquestions Inner circle 1827 Posts
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Hi Michael. Sorry for the delay, I had some personal stuff come up.
I just wanted to follow up here: I hope my comment didn't come off the wrong way. By no means had I intended to insinuate that you hadn't done the research - or that you didn't deserve credit for work you'd done on either the palm or writing them up. I don't have a copy of your book on hand to reference, and there are lots of posts here saying many different things, so while I'm sure you've brought it up before, it's not always easy to find. My point was really to emphasize that while at first it may seem that subtle differences are just variations on a theme, in fact it's far more nuanced, and a small change in one grip might be effectively the same, while in another grip it might be something entirely new. |
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FrankFindley Inner circle 1052 Posts
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Sometimes it is really interesting how attribution rolls out over time. Rick Holcombe and I had an interesting exchange in the YouTube comments of his most excellent "Retention of Vision Vanish" video. In that case, a generalized term for an aspect of different methods (i.e. vanishes which include a retention of vision) became associated with one specific vanish within the literature. We were able to see how this evolution played out in the literature but not specifically who popularized this change (though there are hints that it might have been with a popular Patrick Page release). One result today is that there tends to be a generational gap where older magicians (say 50 YO+) will use the term differently than younger ones (under 50).
Another problem with not having clear crediting is you don't know how to look up further information. For example, as a teenager back in the early 1980s I saw a magician at an Abbott's magic convention do a card matching routine in an informal gathering. None of the magicians I knew were able to point me to the name or creator of the routine. So I ended up working out a version of my own. It was only a couple months ago that I learned the proper attribution. Bill Wisch did a lecture for our local IBM ring that included a refinement that he had made to the original. Bill kindly filled me in that it was a Brother Hamman piece which was only published in a small booklet by Paul LePaul. So I was finally able to track it down and do some additional research in other variations. I am now to the point where I can publish my version as I know it has different aspects from the original and later variations. Proper crediting really helps! |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4691 Posts
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Yes! Thank you for your post.
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IanKendall Special user Edinburgh 571 Posts
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"I got the idea from the Purse Palm that Ian Kendall shows (without crediting)"
I'm not sure whether this was on video or a book, but if I didn't credit the Purse Palm it's because I believe it's older than dirt, and have no idea who to credit. I have no idea where I learned it (although Bobby Bernard would be a good first place to look). |
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MarcelR Regular user Cologne, Germany 148 Posts
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On Oct 1, 2023, IanKendall wrote: Don't mind, since then I have seen this palm several times and I don't remember hearing a credit from anyone. Similar to the Nowhere Palm, (Back)Thumb Palm, Click Pass and others. Somewhere there seems to be a break between history and crediting. I got it from Basic Coin Magic 2.0 (which is great and helped me a lot. Best start for coin magic in my opinion). I searched for it in the conjuring-archive but found nothing, but only because I misunderstood you. I was looking for "Pursed Palm"... According to this page, Purse Palm was invented by Charles Morritt and published in 1944, but following Rubinstein Coin Magic it was Robert Hellis in "Hellis in Wonderland", 1873. So you're right, it's almost as old as dirt. |
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MarcelR Regular user Cologne, Germany 148 Posts
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On Sep 25, 2023, FrankFindley wrote: Hello Frank, I suppose there was a reason why you couldn't ask him yourself. The one thing is crediting in a teaching whether it is a book, video or lecture. Did I understand that correctly? A magician should give credit in a performance? Or was the point that it was an informal demonstration and therefore you would have expected crediting? I would expect crediting only among "insiders". Am I wrong about that? |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4691 Posts
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I can't speak for Frank, but I think the purpose of his post was to note the difficulty of finding the source of material, not that there was an obbligation for the performer to dicuss credits for his method while performing.
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FrankFindley Inner circle 1052 Posts
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[quote]On Oct 2, 2023, MarcelR wrote:
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On Sep 25, 2023, FrankFindley wrote: Mike is correct. I was commenting on how difficult it can be to uncover proper crediting even when you are motivated to do so. I didn't mean to imply that magicians should credit during performances. In fact, I feel just the opposite. Except for classics (linking rings, cups and balls, etc.) it behooves us NOT to give the name magicians use for an item or any other reference which laypeople could easily use to find the method. It is not helpful when, for example, a magician comments on a youtube performance video aimed at laypeople with the name of the trick. I saw one the other day where a magician commented on another's video about his expert use of a dye tube! So, I am with you on keeping it among the "insiders". But this does make it difficult to track down sources sometimes. Regarding the example I gave, I didn't know the magician who performed nor had the chance to talk with him about it. I had two mentors at that time and neither knew the effect when I asked about it. I've probably shown it to several dozen magicians and none of them had ever seen or read about it. So it was quite a pleasant surprise to see Bill perform his variation of Brother John Hamman's The Million-to-One Chance. Of course, he credited it by name/creator in his lecture. And I got a chance to talk to him more about it and he explained it was only published in the Paul LePaul booklet (https://www.conjuringarchive.com/list/bo......t=216995). Who knows, it could have been Bill whom I first saw perform it 40 years ago! |
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MarcelR Regular user Cologne, Germany 148 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2023, Rick Holcombe wrote: I did some research, here is what I found on Coinvanish.com (Coinvention in Las Vegas 2003): "Reed McClintock spoke about a grip he called Demanche grip, which bears its name from the Demanche coin change. David Roth indicated that the grip is actually a very old thumb palm that could be found in Professor Hoffman's MODERN MAGIC (1876). This grip has also been called Thumb Crotch Palm in Gary Kurtz' coin work." Presumably neither McClintock nor Kurtz knew the book and Roth couldn't think of the name. My guess is, it wasn't very popular, since it seems like no one present could get the name right and Reed McClintock probably wouldn't have lectured with some of the world's best coin magicians on an "everyman move". And isn't the argument to name the Downs Palm after T. Nelson Downs he made it popular? So if someone comes up with a Palm, shows it to others and calls it DeManche Palm, because it's relation to the change is obvious, or call it Thumb Crotch Palm, because this describes the position, this looks kind of OK for me. How deep you have to dig for crediting? If I heard a name for a Palm at the Coinvention, I would not question it further. Isn't it perhaps comparable to Side Grip and Sly Palm? Maybe you could justify more names. |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4691 Posts
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I believe that concealment, according to David Roth, was a favorite of the elder Frickel. That comes from an old reference that Roth might have mentioned on the NYCMS DVD series. But my understanding is that the concealment was the original thumb palm before the one we now all use and associate with the name. Vinny Marino and Marion (MB) use it all the time.
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MarcelR Regular user Cologne, Germany 148 Posts
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This is exactly what I found in Modern Magic (1876) "This is an specially quick mode of palming, and if properly executed the illusion is perfect. It is said to be a special
favourite of the elder Frikell." No name mentioned. But this does not really helped me to understand. Downs Palm was invented by Masque, but named after Downs because he made it popular. Frickel Palm was invented by Frickel, but everybody knows the grip from the DeManche Change. It seems that Frickel has not published anything at all. For me it seems as if double standards are applied and it looks like you could justify calling it DeManche Palm for the same reason why Downs Palm is not called Masque Palm and vice versa. |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4691 Posts
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Likely the concealment attributed to Frickel was around a lot longer, but there is no earlier reference that has been documented. DeManche uses it for his change, but never took any credit for the thumb position. In some of the older coin magic books there are references to thumb palm that really mean held in the crotch of the thumb, but you would only know from the illustrations. Apparently that was the thumb palm concealment of the times. The thumb palm as we know it became more popular and was accepted as a standard for the position.
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MarcelR Regular user Cologne, Germany 148 Posts
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You mentioned Vinny Marino. Is he the one from Vinsmagic who kindly shared his colorchange? In this video the grip is called crimp. Are there more names out there?
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Posted: Aug 19, 2023 02:06 pm 