I also thank Mr. Haydn and agree with him. However, it might be naive and innocent, but, if you've ever been caught in a lie by a young child (2-4 years old), and seen and felt the puzzled confusion and disillusion in them you will know what is right and what is wrong, It does have to do with naiveté and innocence, to them things are pretty black and white and it takes awhile for to be conditioned into accepting our cultures concept of the grey areas. We may (or may not) need these grey areas in our culture but for them the process of accepting this part of the culture is full of disapointment.

I agree that we live in a culture of lies, some of which we find acceptable and some we don't, but I think the debate about the good and the bad is immaterial because I don't believe that story telling or performing tricks is even in the same category. The very same child above, disillusioned and disappointed by an adults "white" or "grey" lie, understands the difference clearly, enjoying the telling of a story or the deception in a fun trick, hopefully couched in a good story.

There is a difference that may be hard to put into words for us but they get it.

I think we do too.

It may just be semantics, but I prefer to think that the majority of our brotherhood are performers and story tellers not liars.

Hamilton

OK! Sorry guys, but I just arrived home from my holiday WHOOOPE!! or I would have chipped in before.
I have just looked at all the posts I've missed. WOW! there are some crackers.
Firstly, respect to Whithaydn and his brilliant posts.
Enigmatic aura, Thanks for sticking up for me Your counter argument was stinging! I thought your posts were well argued and well written.

bishthemagish. 'When the lie is a form of storytelling it is not considered a lie'. Prove that statement bisht. If you can't, your a liar.

Daegs ¦£
Are you at the present, or have at anytime in the past, been a professional psychologist?
I have always wondered if the psychologist makes a diagnosis when they are themselves, affected by a particular disorder (sorry if the term disorder causes offence to anyone). but how do you know when a psychologist is a professional not a professional liar!
Most of history (as in the undocumented and still unverifiable stuff) is conjecture. we are still finding out that there were other sides to the story. there is a group called FACT. anything that falls into this group are known TRUTHS (*plz don't go abstract physics on me, I am using the terms in the genral sense*) Things like the earth is round, the moon is not made of green cheese, 2+2=4 2x2=4.
If it in anyway falls outside this group then it is Fiction, Not true, a lie!

Let me give you a situational example to think about... A conspirital lie.
You are at school (IMAGINE ok!). Teach has got his back to the class, scribbling some rubbish for you to copy out. Your buddie stinky ray and you, decide to fire spit balls (really soggy spit saturated balls of paper). You both get a really big and wet SB going. You give eachother a nod and fire away! SPLAT!!!
You managed to get teach' right in the back of the head. The class go wild, laughing and whooping as teach' shouts at the class to quiet down.
Teach then asks, "who did that", he eyes that class and gets nervous giggles from those that saw. he then says "I am going to keep the whole class after school for half an hour if you don't tell me who fired that spit ball".

If you fell into the catagory of telling teach, see 1.

If you shut up and enjoyed seeing teach get his dose of payback, see 2.

If you burst into tears and admited it was you when it wasn't, just so the class didn't get held behind, see 3

If 'you' fired the spitball see 4.



1. sad, sad, sad! The whole class will now never trust you with any secrets or let you in on any cool things. they know you will be the first person to spoil a good thing.

2. You loved to see that scribble-monger get his payback for all of that wasted time he showers you with.

3. I like your style. You could not bare to see the class suffer. Your dear classmates would forever know that they could blame anything on dependable old you!

4. Yea! If you read the example again, you will see that I said 'you' fire the spitball that hits teach.
If you answered 4 but felt drawn towards 2 aswell then I can say it was a good thing you had stinky ray as a getout clause

Sorry that was not the right example...

You and three friends go fishing.
You go for two days and catch not a thing, all four of you.
when you return from your trip, you know your going to have a bunch of buddies all eager too hear about your catch, all four of you
You all decide to say you caught about seven or eight over the two days. you all agree not to get carried away with 35lb whoppers and say you caught a few good fish.
When you return, you all have a good story to tell your friends. You laugh and joke about when harry slipped into the water while landing a 5 pounder.

I think I've lost the thread but I'm going to leave it dangling!

Anymore psychoanalysis welcome