Hi folks. I was wondering if anyone could provided some advice

I've been working on great new idea for a new method for a classic prediction illusion. However. The new method requires me to to do some R&D contact manufactures of existing equipment, engage them to make prototypes etc etc

Firstly I wondered if anyone else has tackled this before and how you dealt with the issue of confidentiality etc. as when talking to supplier and manufactures I will need to explain the whole scenario in order to see if they can produce what I require. I could get them signed up on NDA's etc but is that sufficient.

Or more my fear if I cold approach a manufacture (of a non magic product) saying I would like to work with them to produce a magic product will they even be prepared to sign and NDA?

I'm quite prepared to engaged in what is required but don't want to leap in unprepared and have this potentially 'new' illusion copied before I've even had chance to get it to market.

Your thoughts, ideas and experience welcomed

Many thanks
Paul.

Okay, you have an idea, great. But, do you have a polished complete presentation to go along with your idea. Can you present the trick to a group and they know nothing of how it is done?

From my experience no one would sign a Non-disclosure Agreement before viewing the trick as it is presented to the public. I really don't think they would sign any agreement, but it does not matter if you do not have the cash to back up any legal action you could take against them.

What most guys do in your situation, is sell the "idea" for $50 to someone that would pay and move on. It may or may not even be manufactured and marketed, but if you don't want to do the hard work of finding a manufacture to make you items for you, and they do not have to be connected to magic at all, then their is little hope of it ever coming to market.

Penguin Magic sells a DVD on how to make and market tricks. You might start there and make your decision what you which to pursue. There is a magic shop that will look at ideas and if they think it is good, they may make you an offer to market it, but they do not sign anything for their interview of you and your product.

Good luck, making and marketing a trick is long hard work, and the returns may be very small. Remember, magic is a very limited market, and you just limited it further by making it a mental trick. So you have an idea that only mentalist may be interested in.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the feed back. I can indeed see the issue. I do have a presentation worked out for it but of course can't execute it without the working prototype

I'm currently investigating the possibility of purchasing ''off the shelf" kit to lash together a working prototype so that I can indeed demonstrate the principle.

I understand its a limited market place. Particularly limiting it to mentalism. I would imagine that if I were able to get this as a marketable product it would be low volume high price sales due to the nature of the item and the tech involved.

I take the point to about NDAs with no cash to back it up.

Ill have a look for that penguin DVD.

I'm hoping I can find existing equipment I can rework to achieve is. I know it already exists its more a question of can I bend its purpose to my needs to use it as an illusion.

More personal R&D required to make sure this is possible. Want to be sure of possibilities before approaching anyone anyway.

You are correct, in your comments, one has to have a working prop, no one will buy an idea. Most tricks sold as "New Ideas" have been used by the inventor for 10 years of more. Thus they have a polished trick, that some have seen and want. If you don't even have a working model, you actually have nothing tangible. No one will do all the designing work and R&D for free. You have to do it yourself or pay someone to do it. In this market, there are not any free lance R&D men, they all follow their own paths.

If you have a working idea that isn't a "large" illusion, you can contact Ellusionist or Penguin Magic. They are both reputable and you can describe your effect (and show video if possible). If it's decent, they may work a deal with you.

First of all, as a Mentalist I get a bit bent when someone refers to a piece as a Mentalist Illusion. . . no such thing! You may have a bit of Mental Magic that's akin to say, Don Wayne's Dream Vision but that's not "Mentalism".

As to your question about manufacturing I have a few questions for you. . .

1.) have you created a prototype . . . a cardboard version of the effect that will allow you to work out measurements, possible flaws to your theory, etc.?

2.) Why do you want to promote the fact that you might have something "new" . . . why don't you want to keep it more exclusive for a few years so you get the benefit of exclusivity?

I have several friends but one in particular you might have heard of, Franz Harrary. . . Franz invented the Janet Box and yet people pat him on the back for doing that "Copperfield Trick" when he performs it. The reason being that Franz let it out too quickly before cultivating his own reputation with the effect. There are other examples of this and it is something most of today's young people never pause to weigh; they are in a hurry to see their name out there as some kind of design genius. . . not to burst your bubble, but 96%of what you come up with, has already been done. . . and that's the track record for most of the top developers out there. Franz will tell you that about 10% of what he comes up with is marketable and the rest is a flop; Stinemeyer will tell you the same thing, so take some time to think this through.

3.) What about this effect needs to be made that you can't do yourself?

If there is metal work and you don't have those skills you find a local machinist to help you make said piece(s) same goes for any wood work, plastics, etc. chances are you can find sources for all of these talents less than 90 minutes from where you live if you reside in the lower 48 states of the U.S. or most of southern Canada. You really don't need a magic maker for your first few pieces; especially when it comes to a working prototype -- most of them will charge you $5k up front + materials just to work things out from scratch. . . at least that's the norm when it comes to big illusions. John Gaughan offered to help me develop a piece (20 years ago) and he wanted $10k in advance, so brace yourself.

My Suggestion (and I'm repeating myself here) is to make the original so you can work out all the bugs that will exist in the initial creation. Take notes and then, over time, work with your key people that helped you build the first one, and as a team work out the problems and improve on the piece to the point of perfection. . . this MUST include the prop's deceptivity. . . how deceptive the workings are with the prop, how thin it appears, for example and if or not the method is too obvious.

Work the prop regularly and maybe (and quietly) share it with no more than a half-dozen working pros who have come to you with a serious interest in the prop. In doing this you will learn what the effect is actually worth because they will make offers of what should be thousands of dollars (DON'T GET EXCITED THAT'S NOTHING, IT GETS BETTER). Don't be overly stingy but don't cave in at the first offer and be patient, knowing what your target price is and seeing if they meet that price or surpass it on their first or second bid.

Don't look at hitting the main market for at least 3-5 years, especially if this is going to be a larger prop.

I hope I've been clear enough on things, ask if you have questions.

To do my best to answer your question, any reputable manufacturer (fabricator) that is selling their service should be willing to sign a standard NDA to not disclose details of what they build for you. Otherwise they wouldn't have many big customers.

Paul: Not to put too fine a point on this, I make my living doing exactly what you are hoping to do and have painfully dealt with the very issues you are describing, dozens of times. If you PM me with your questions I will do my best to help.

All the best,

Christopher

Greetings all!

I was reading this thread with great interest because I too have an idea that I would be interested in developing. My concern is that, like so many magic tricks/illusions, mine builds on existing principles/ideas and I know that many pieces of equipment are patented, especially today.

Where can I find out what's under patent protection and what's in public domain, as it were? I have the US Patent Office bookmarked, but I know many magic/illusion designers file their patents in such a way as to make them illusive in the database searches to prevent people from stealing their ideas and building knock-offs.

How can I know if mine is enough of a departure to not infringe on another's patent? ...or if mine might, itself, be a patentable idea?

How much can I expect to pay for a patent search and how do I find a reputable attorney?

It would be good if I could do some preliminary research to know if my trick/illusion is original enough to be worth the effort and expense.

Thank you for your thoughts!

Don't know why you want to highjack doogie1001 forum, but I will give a little insight to you.

The 1st thing you should do is research those other tricks you mentioned, as you know what they are, then go to the source and talk to people who own them. If you can, buy all them, or if you can't afford that, find a person who is in the know. If you have no connections, then hire a consultant. Jim Steinmeyer, Don Wayne, Gagnon, John Gaughan, etc. It will be a good $10,000 or so well spent. The last time I heard of a Patent search was years ago, many years ago, and the figure of $5,000 was mentioned and several years of searching. I am sure that amount has tripled by now. Remember, that is only for the search, the actual application will be thousands of dollars more. Just look in your telephone book, remember those, if you don't have a land line, then go to the library and use theirs. Look under Patient Attorney in the Attorney's section.

Being you are in Ohio, you can start your search by contacting fellow Buckeye, Richard Hughes, who has a feather flower magic business in the Revenna area. He is a member here on the Café and is very knowledgeable about magic. http://www.hughesmagic.com/

Greetings all!

I was reading this thread with great interest because I too have an idea that I would be interested in developing. My concern is that, like so many magic tricks/illusions, mine builds on existing principles/ideas and I know that many pieces of equipment are patented, especially today.

Where can I find out what's under patent protection and what's in public domain, as it were? I have the US Patent Office bookmarked, but I know many magic/illusion designers file their patents in such a way as to make them illusive in the database searches to prevent people from stealing their ideas and building knock-offs.

How can I know if mine is enough of a departure to not infringe on another's patent? ...or if mine might, itself, be a patentable idea?

How much can I expect to pay for a patent search and how do I find a reputable attorney?

It would be good if I could do some preliminary research to know if my trick/illusion is original enough to be worth the effort and expense.

Thank you for your thoughts!

Why don't you build the effect yourself or find someone who can help you then market it yourself? If it is an original idea put an ad in the Linking Ring, etc.