I started making my own props a few years ago because I found most of the stuff you see in magic shops to be of inferior quality, or didn't fit the "look" I was going for. Some friends have asked me to make props for them and that has grown into making props for others.

There are several of you on this forum who build and sell very nice magic props and illusions. I was wondering how you determine the price for your work? Obviously, one must take into consideration raw materials, supplies, time, the cost of custom jigs & fixtures, overhead, royalties etc. I guess my real question is, what is the "magic" or magic secret worth? How do you determine if the price asked, no matter how high the quality of the prop, is too just much to ask for the effect? Are effects in the "public domain" worth less, dollar wise, than original concepts?

Do you start low and increase the price if your work "flys off the shelf"? Or do you start high and lower the price if no one buys any? Again, obviously, once you have a "name" or are known in the magic community, you can charge more because your reputation proceeds you. But to some extent, the same question still applies.

Any thoughts? I appreciate you input!

Tim Silver (AGMagic) - The Magic Woodshop

Setting the price is one of the first things I do and then work backwards. I set the price at what I think would be fair in the market for what I want to offer. That way I know what my budget is for time and supplies. I also have a good idea of the prop and what I want to do with it and how it might look in the end. I would never drop the price once set. I prefer to start a little low and come up to the price. I don't think its fair to early buyers of a prop to later drop the price unless you send a refund to those who bought early which incidently I have done. I figure that if I treat people the way I would want to be treated that things will work out in the end.

I don't know if this will help but these are my basic thoughts on it.

Tabman, Thanks for your input. I don't like the idea of dropping the price either. Seems a crummy thing to do to my customers.

Right now, I am working on a Joe Berg style card frame, similar to the one that is currently on the market. However, my frame will be Maple and have Walnut doors inlaid with other hardwoods, not plywood doors. My version will not have the card lock as I have found it to be more of a nuisance than it is worth. The Magic Woodshop version will also have the dadoed door stops as shown in "The Berg Book". The frames are comming along nicely.

My concern is that the "effect" (not the actual prop) may not be percieved as worth any more than VH charges for their version. I would hope that the inlay and other improvements, plus the addition cost of the materials would increase the percieved value of the piece.

I guess a little more research is in order before I bring anything to market. Anyone else have ideas?

Bespoke work will always be more expensive.
Mass produced will always be cheaper.
But,if you can supply a product that has a high level of craftsmanship mixed with good,and sometimes unusual,materials and give first rate customer service,you will find customers will pay.
You can always sell quality,but you can't always sell quantity.
Ray.

The problem with going head to head with a similar product on the market is that you are setting yourself up for comparison. Those doing that comparison are not necessarily the best qualified to do so, so you must consider who your market customers are.

I do not target the general mass of magicians, at least not with most of the items I make. There are enough builders to fill that niche already. I target those who want quality and uniqueness, and I have come to know over time, that there are those whose tastes are so refined that my stuff is not good enough to attract them as loyal customers. Oh, well... you can't please everyone!

I find some people resist buying at the prices I charge, while others snatch it up, and resell it at profits larger than I made on the initial sale. Beauty, as well as practicality are truly in the eyes of the beholders. But I also understand that sometimes even though a person has an appreciation for something of quality or rarity, they may not be able to afford it. I myself am one of those people.

Because I see the world from a position of not having unlimited funds, I am the world's worst at pricing my own stuff, but hopefully getting a little better as time goes on. I have classically charged too little for my stuff (if I can believe what I've been told), but there does reach a point when you can charge too much.

I was curious to hear how Tabby deals with this. If I understand, he decides upon an item, figures what people might pay for one, and then builds within those figures.

That's really not how I do it (although maybe I should), but I'd like to add that I also try to estimate how many would sell in a reasonable period of time. Like with pricing your show, the higher your prices, the smaller your market.

The last thing I want to do is sit on inventory. I neither have the space to house the stuff, nor do I have the desire to see money tied up, when it could have been used to make a power bill or something else.

I have been guilty of dropping prices, but only in a couple of instances. One, when none of them sell, and I envision them sitting here forever. Although getting better about this, I tend to have less confidence in my stuff than I probably should. I find it easy to doubt that something will sell, if it sits here for a while.

Two, when the item is the last of a small run or a one off, and I want to clear it out. Only once or twice have I reduced a price on my website. Most likely, I would offer it here on the Café, with free shipping as a member perk. Unfortunately, so many sellers here offer free shipping on their used and unusable (remorse) magic, that buyers are really starting to expect it. The sad fact is that shipping rates are sky-rocketing. It is not unusual for me to ship an item and have it cost me $30. or more. It's hard to offer free shipping when that costs more than the item would if you walked into a magic shop to buy it new.

Three, when I REALLY need some cash flow, I'll bite the bullet and dump stuff here, at a reduced price. I do however resist the temptation, as long as is humanly possible, looking for alternate solutions to problems, first. But you do what you have to do to eat, right?

Probably the opposite of Tabby's method, I build the item to the standards that I want to see it produced. Sometimes, I just want to produce a nice looking, functional prop that works. Other times, like with a few of the things seen on various parts of my website, I pull out all the stops, and make the piece as nice as I am capable of doing. Then I set the price according to what I feel is worth the time, etc, that I've put into it. This is where I tend to underprice myself.

In the case of the Oriental Nested Boxes, I made 4 sets. Initially, I wanted to make a few nice sets, and figured I could do them under the price examples of other nested boxes on the market. The more I worked on them the more I felt they were worth, and it wasn't until I had finished them that I set a price. In my mind's eye, I had originally figured I could make a nice set for $250. - $300. I probably can, but not anywhere as nice as what these turned out to be. I eventually set the price at $625., which is pretty high for a nested box set, if comparing to others on the market.

I sold 3 of the 4 sets, and kept the 4th, but could have easily sold it, too. One of the sets I sold is now on a private estate sale site for about twice what I charged.

The one big advantage I had with those, as I try to do with other things I make, is that beyond quality, they cannot be found anywhere else. This I feel is a big piece of the puzzle. Collectors love quality, but they also love the fact that an item is rare. I respect them in this regard, too. If I make something in a small run, and sell based on it being one of 3, or one of six, or even as a unique item, then I do not duplicate those items again. I will however, change the design, so they are not identical, if I want to make more, but I rarely even do that.

Of course, much of what I have discussed here is from the POV of attracting the collectors, although there are working performers that do buy and used my stuff, too. That's the advantage of also being a working performer. I know what I appreciate in my own show regarding practicality, durability, etc. In that regard, I design from the inside out.

Now, comes another big consideration of pricing magic props... wholesaling or jobbing to dealers.

If I make an item, and set what I feel is a fair price, that may be just enough to keep me happy, with a marginal profit. But if I had to sell the same item at a wholesale price I have to examine whether I would find the volume of business worth the reduced profit, or would it cause me to lose my ***?

If you have a good product, and it gets noticed, dealers will eventually be contacting you to try and make a business deal. If you have already established a retail price for the item, you may have little choice. This is where uniqueness and quality pay off. The market will sometimes bear a price increase that will allow you to still make a profit, but it may narrow the market, if not price itself comnpletely out of the market.

Because of this, I do not wholesale items that I have already established prices for. If I am happy selling something at the current price and pace, I don't relish creating my own competition. There are exceptions to that thought, though.

I have a very good working relationship with one major dealer at this time. His reputation, and visibility virtually guarantee sales. His endorment of the stuff I make, also helps my visibility and credibility.

In order to maximize this for both he and I, I discuss potential new items to release through him that are either new in my line, or something of which I have made very few in the past. In any case, we both desire items unobtainable elsewhere, at least in the design and form we choose. This allows us to discuss a price structure that works for both of us. I have to decide what is worth my while, and he has to decide if he can sell at a reasonable mark-up. Not everything will work in this regard, but advantages to strengthen sales are rarity, quality, exclusiveness, and reputation (his already firm, mine gaining strength with each new release). UNless an item has already been established as to price, or has a strong field of comparison items, a new item can usually be set at whatever price you want to establish. There is a modest set of boundaries that point to too low, as well as ridiculously high, so it's not impossible to hit the good zone.

Most magicians have a reasonable sense for quality and value, even if they cannot afford everything. At least they understand fairness. The key is either to educate those who see everything based upon the lowest price for an item, based on the item's name alone (i.e., Die Box, Silk Cabby, or Change Bag), regardless of where it comes from (using the import crap as examples), or by deciding not to worry about that segment of the market, and let them continue to seek out their best "deals" from the vast mounds of junk out there.

Now wait a minute. Here is what I said, "I set the price at what I think would be fair in the market for what I want to offer."

I charge what I consider to be a fair price for props, not what I think the market will bear. That's not what I meant. For example: On my Sefalaljia Number 2 sets, Ive heard from owners of the Busby boxes that I am charging way too LITTLE for mine and that I am driving the value of their collectible down but I hardly feel that a Sefalaljia 2 cabinet is worth the 2k to 3.5k that they are supposedly bringing on the market. I think my price is fair to me and to the buyer and no corners cut; only the finest of everything. We're all winners.

I was trying to see if I understood, but I obviously goofed. I actually hope I understood your meaning, but failed in my re-phrasing of it.

When I said "what people might pay for one" that was actually a poor phrasing of your "fair market price". I was in no way trying to imply that you would attempt to push a price beyond that.

It may have been better to say, "what people might reasonably expect to pay for one", but I will just make direct quotes from now on.

I was also in no way, shape, or form trying to imply that you would cut corners to stay within the price you have in mind. Your work already attests to that fact. I have no doubts that you fully understand the costs of materials and labor before you even begin to think about setting a price.

It was all a poor choice of words on my part, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was just hoping to see if I understood what you had said, the main point of my curiosity being how you start with the fair market price and work backwards.

My curiosity was largely because of its difference to my method of establishing a price after I have finalized the costs, which is typically as I am finishing the item. As I mentioned, I am very bad at setting prices for the items I make, so I naturally became curious to understand the methods of someone far more established and experienced than I.

Tim, I sometimes build my own props, I sometimes buy and refurbish my own props, and many times I buy from others.
I can tell you from a "customer" point of view many props are way overpriced for the market the builder is trying to reach.
I think you know what I'm getting at here you can create a great looking set of Hippity Hop Rabbits and try to charge $300 but you are still working against the perception this is a $39 dollar trick...
The problem is the market you are trying to work in, one would be for the collector of custom props the other a budget minded buyer.
I can give you a long list of props that were released on the market priced too high and ended up on auction sites at half the original cost when it went unused.
The best way to estimate you selling price is to select a market to work in and work from there.
No one gets rich building magic props and not too many are lucky enough to make a full time living at it, don't make the mistake of wanting to cover all your expenses with one prop and price yourself out of the business.

Joe

Now Michael, I know you know you are absolutely one of my favorite people and I wasnt worried about what you thought but what someone else reading this stuff might read into it themselves. It made me realize that its probably better to stay out of discussions like this.

Now, as far as "reverse engineering" is concerned; I learned it from an engineer who helped develop the heat tiles for the space shuttle. He told me that what they did was to visualize the finished project or goal they were trying to achieve and then work their way back to the start step by step. Then they would have an exact roadmap to follow to their goal.

When I visualize something I might consider offering to my base I vusualize the finest version I can come up with and then visualize what that might fairly sell for. Then I work my way backwards to see if its feasable. A lot hits the cutting room floor. And primarily, I want my work to be special and mean something. Ive always felt you were in that catagory.

When I make a committment to offer a prop and start building it, Ive built it a hundred times already in my minds-eye. I know ever cut, every joint, every route, hole and every aspect of it not saying that I don't improve as I go, I do, a man would be a fool not to alter his plan should something better present itself.

I initially saw the original post shortly after it was started, but decided to hang back, and not jump in, mostly because I am nowhere near an expert in this field. While I do manage to get a fair, if maybe high price for some of my things, I have historically taken it on the chin for years. I figured it best to let someone better equipped field the first volley.




This is certainly a great system to model one's own after!



That's as good a reason as I've ever heard in favor of making prototypes! I rarely get through any first-time project without some changes being made mid-stream.

This is sort of what happened (on steroids) when I made the nested box sets. I kept finding ways to improve the overall product beyond my original idea. But, it greatly affected the bottom line, as it evolved. I could not in fairness to myself, stick with my original estimated price range, and do the things I was able to do (and what I wanted to do). I then committed myself to turning out the best product I could, and then hope for the best when I decided on a fair price. Fortunately, the stars aligned, and they sold to happy buyers.

I can say that I was happy enough with the results, that I decided to keep one of the sets for myself. That's something I almost never do with stuff I make, unless it is going directly into my show. Usually in those cases, I'll perform with the prototype or an extra one that I've worked into the run at the same time. I may not put as much time into it as I would the ones I plan to sell. I'll probably bang it up through repeated use anyway. My justification is that I can always make another one if I have to. That's why I rarely collect my own stuff, but somehow have a habit of collecting stuff from other sources that may not even be made as well as what I make. How's that for a bent perspective? Ha!!

I will say that I don't always work under these loose guidelines. Usually, I am able to get some grasp of what n comparable item could logically be worth on the market, but sometimes it's hard to know if I was right or not until the horse has left the barn. My mind's eye can be dreadfully optimistic at times.

You have to control it and not let it take over. Its just another tool.

Thanks to the 4 of you who have replied thus far. There is lots of good info to digest here. Unfortunately, it is getting late and I have an early morning. I will post replies and questions as I work my way through your posts again tomorrow.

Again, thank you all for your insightfull input.

Tim

True. Not that I cannot be realistic, but I just tend to envision how I think things could be. I could turn a pony ride into a three ring circus if I think about it too long.

So all that's left is the implementation!! (and a way to get rid of the horse apples)

Thinking to myself... (Hmmm???... This is going to be more expensive than I thought. Dang! There I go again!)

Everybody loves the circus!! I know I do. So keep thinking cuz you come up with great stuff!!!

I don't have room here for a flea circus, let alone a real one!! Ha=ha!!

The real question is how much should you charge for small sized flea circus? I guess this would be a one ring flea circus? Could you do it in a square foot?

Ray, That is my hope!



Michael, I have also found this to be true. The first time I built a custom prop for another Magician he paid me twice the agreed on price plus gave me another $200-$300 dollars worth of magic! It made me quite happy that he was that pleased with my creation.

Thank you for your time and thoughtfullness in formulating your replies. There is much to grasp there. Hope I didn't start a fued between you and Tabman!



Joe, good thoughts...Thanks. That was part of what I was getting at with my question about what the effect is worth. I don't want to compete with the mass produced junk out there. I started build because I wanted classy & unique props that actually worked. I bought some HH rabbits several years back because they were way cuter than Abbotts or anyone elses. Problem is the gimmicks are only 1 ply wood (think Luan doorskin) and warps between uses. I have to flatten them for a few days before I can use them, so maybe there is a market for a unique well made HH.

I don't plan on getting rich off this, or even making a living, but some side income would be nice. Other than that I hope to give something back to the Magic community in the way of interesting props.

[quote]On 2010-05-09 22:25, tabman wrote:


Tabman, I guess I do this also, but had never thought about going that 1 step further to get to the price.

Thanks again to all of you for your insights.

Tim

Tim,

I hope you'll keep us in the loop on what you are working on. Keep your camera handy, too!

Good luck!

~michael