I want to install a piano hinge on 1/2" plywood. Screws come loose and bolts/nuts stick out the back, so I was considering using rivets. At the hardware store I found semi-tubular rivets that look like they might work well, but I'm not sure how to set them. Can a center punch be used, or is there a better method for manual installation?

Do you have better ideas on installing the hinges?

Thanks.

I would dado out a section of the plywood.. replace it with hardwood and glue it firmly.

Then use the screws to set the hinge into the plywood.

I woudln't use rivets.. screws, properly set, will always be the strongest option.

Amos;
True semi-tublar rivets are designed to be set with a riveting machine. The machine has a hopper at the top for holding hundreds of the rivets, a channel for the rivets to slide down, and the hammer/die section. The machines must be configured for the size of rivets that are being used. I use three different diameters of semi-tubular rivets and hence need three separate machines - one for each diameter. The bottom die that sets or curls the hollow end of the rivet has a spring loaded center which slides up into the hollow rivet to align things as the rivet is being set. This spring section slides down into a hardened steel portion with shape of the rolled rivet machined into it. Think of an eyelet setter. At the moment of setting the rivet is forced down over the sliding center pin then down into the roll form. As this is done, the center pin retracts into the main portion of the die. It all happens in a small fraction of a second. In short, the proper setting tool is not cheap and weighs several hundred pounds. You might jury rig up a canibalized eyelet setter for the job; but it would probably not work correctly.

You see most all commonly available wooden box apparatus items assembled with pop rivets to hold the hinges. This is done to turn out an item quickly and cheaply. Manufacturers of such junk know that magicians will buy it anyway because it is cheap - and magicians love cheap. These manufacturers do not care if it falls apart in a few weeks. As Makeupguy indicated, rivets are a lousy choice for attaching hinges in wooden items. The rivets WILL become loose and cannot be tightened. His suggestion of using a hardwood filler strip and screws is the way to go. Use fine threaded screws for best grip in hardwood. Drill the holes first then soap the screws (to lube them as they are being installed) for a good strong tight fit.
Jim

Old woodworking tip, if you want to use brass screws, get a steel screw of the same size and use it to pretap the holes. That way you will not damage the softer brass screw making the hole.

I will probably use the hardwood strip. The reason I was asking is that I saw an illusion with the hinges attached using rivets, and they seem to have stayed very tight through many performances and a lot of activity. They also had a very low profile on both sides.

I never intended to use pop rivets in wood. As a matter of fact, I can't see using pop rivets in anything...

There's a time and a place for almost everything. Pop rivets are especially useful in an application where - given the proper materials (not plywood) - access is only available from one side. Also, when both side are available, the addition of a correctly-sized steel washer [to the expansion side of the rivet] can make an extremely reliable and durable connection.

Pop rivets also offer a unique advantage in that they automatically form a usable, long-wearing channel through which to pass a wire, cord or connecting rod. I know of at least one highly regarded commercial prop builder who routinely uses this feature of pop rivets to his (and his customers') advantage.

Thomas Wayne

How do they form a channel?

Amos;
Any pop type rivets that I have seen leave a closed rivet in the material - no channel. The way they work leaves behind the core when it pops off after enlarging the backside of the rivet. An eyelet on the other hand is often used for making channel liners. This link of one of my eyeletting machines in operation shows an installed eyelet.
http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/piercedcloth094sm.jpg
The pointed pin sticking up through the black cloth is a specially designed, sharpened, hardened piercing point for making the holes in the fabric. It is not glowing red. The tip is lit up by a laser to indicate exactly where the hole/eyelet will be placed. This improves accuracy in positioning the eyelet and eliminates having to punch the holes.

There are big differences between semi-tublar rivets, pop rivets, and eyelets. There are also differences between the machines to set these fasteners.
Jim

They form a channel because once you take the center "pull rod" out.. they leave a smooth aluminum hole, that he runs wire or other control cables through.

I discovered this myself after the frustration of too many broken screws. Now, I am wishing I had a tool that operated like a screwdriver, but with a threaded tip, like a specialized tap. I often work with VERY tiny screws, and just trying to keep from dropping them is usually enough of a pain. Couple that with carpal tunnel syndrome and fingers that constantly go numb, and you'll know why I want the tapping tool.

Next item on the want list are appropriate length screws that come with small hinges. I have, at times, had to nip about a milimeter off the tip of a screw to keep it from punching through the other side. Multiply that times the number of screws it takes to fasten the hinges of a hundred boxes, and you know why I have that want.



I have used them for similar applications, and since the intended use is as a grommet, rather than a fastener, it is often possible to set them with just a half cinch from the tool. Don't allow the pull rod to pop off. Just pull enough to get it to hold, then knock it out from the other end.

Depending on the intended use, it is even possible to press the rivet into a tight hole, using a drop of CA to lock it, and then knock out the pull rod. I have done this when running something through a piece of plywood like a thread that would likely fray and break if constantly rubbing along the bare drilled hole.

Pop rivets also work well for setting loose pin hinges into thin plywood, when no torque is to be applied to the hinge; it's only purpose being to assemble parts together with no stress put on the joints.

~michael

Contrary to the pontifications of Mr. Riser, pop rivets only leave behind a "closed channel" if the fabricator wishes it to be so. The nature of a pop rivet allows the bulbous end – which remains after the rivet is compressed - to be easily removed with a small straight pin punch, leaving behind the rather handy channel I mentioned.

In my experience I have found that a true expert craftsman learns the limits of his tools and materials - and, often, how to stretch those boundaries.

On the other hand, rigid stick-up-the-backdoor instant-experts, who think they know all there is to know about any given subject (usually after only a cursory self-education) will tend to tell you something can't be done, simply because they don't know how to do it. Such attention-hungry wannabes will attempt to impress you with a myriad of “technical” terms and seemingly difficult techniques, not to mention the exotic machines that you don’t own, which they proclaim are “necessary” to get the job done. [do a search… you too may see a pattern – lol]

The simple truth, however, is that a great deal can be accomplished - often with the most rudimentary equipment - if you are simply willing to ignore the “experts” and experiment on your own. Good luck with your project.

TW
(PS: Incidentally, there are also specialty pop rivets that leave behind a threaded channel. allowing you to use machine screws to fasten into your newly-formed threaded insert; this approach might very well be what you’re looking for: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/rivnuts.php )

ROFL - Knocking the core out of a pop rivet is "making do" and not a clean looking professional solution to the problem of making a lined through hole. For many builders "making do" is fine. That is their choice. There is no way I would want the raw end of the pop rivet where the expansion took place exposed on something I made. The whole idea of doing this is to try to duplicate an eyelet. Why not use an eyelet and have two nice ends on the through hole liner?

Contrary to what some might indicate that I say, fancy/expensive machinery is not required to do every job correctly. This is an eyelet job NOT a semi-tublar rivet as was discussed originally. Eyelets are easy. Brass eyelets may be bought in a variety of lengths or the eyelets may be made to any length from hardware/hobby shop brass tubing. The ends of the tubing need to be annealed before converting the tubing into an eyelet. This will soften the end so that it will roll as desired. The first roll may be put on one end of the tubing with this tool:

http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/Eyelet/Tooling2730.jpg

The tubing with only one soft end is stood upright on a steel plate - soft end up. The long tip of the tool goes into the tubing and the body of the tool has a groove turned into it to form the desired roll on the tubing end. This is gently tapped with a mallet until the roll is formed. The long extension keeps everything lined perfectly. On the tool shown here this tip is spring loaded; but for custom one-off jobs it may just be machined on the end. This tool is made from O-1 or W-1 drill rod then properly tempered (easy propane torch job). Nothing expensive nor exotic is used here - just simple hand tools.

The tube with one rolled end is slid into the hole in the structure requiring the lined through hole. The roll end already formed is held in position with the left hand tool in the image below. This tool fits over and very slightly into the rolled end already made. The end of this tool slides into a 2" diameter by 2" long piece of steel bar to add mass as this end serves as the anvil. The first tool is slid into the tubing and the second end is tapped with a mallet and carefully rolled up tightly against the structure. This is a two person job-one holds the anvil end in place. This process produces a durable brass lined through hole with beautifully finished ends - both ends. The brass is more durable than the usual pop rivet body would be (aluminum).

http://www.jamesriser.com/Magic/Eyelet/Tooling2728.jpg

The above is how I would solve the through hole problem. Cheap easy professional looking - nothing expensive is required to do the job correctly.

Michael, use tiny machine screws instead of wood screws for your hinges on thin materials. You can get 2-56 or 4-40 in very short lengths. For the bracing wood in the original problem, I prefer box wood. It is very dense and can be worked like metal. It will take and hold extremely small threaded machine screws tightly. These screws are readily available in brass or stainless steel to match your hinge hardware.

OK, let the flames continue LOL.
Jim

Thanks, Jim. Looks like I better look these up and order a bucket full. I use a lot of them.

The rest of you... Quick! Help me hide everything sharp that can be thrown!!

~michael

Michael;
RE: short screws
I buy mine from MSC. The ordered items are here the next day. In their 2006/2007 big blue catalog check on page 1900 for the stainless steel screws and page 1901 for the brass screws. Both metals are available in as short as 1/4" lengths in 2-56 and 4-40.

If you have trouble locating boxwood, let me know and I'll send you some to try out. I have a lifetime supply. Warning ... once you use it, you will be dissatisified with anything else for the job. The next best affordable wood (for beefing up plywood for tiny screws) that I have found is osage orange. You should be able to locate this in your area.
Jim

Michael;
There is a tool sold in the electrical tool section at the hardware store that is a tri-step tap with a screwdriver handle. It is used to clean up holes in electrical boxes, it has a 6-32, an 8-32, and a 10-32 all on the same shaft. It might be too big for your application. MicroMark sells a miniature screwstarter for about $10.

Tonight I installed the hinges using the dado-and-hardwood method, but I discovered why the previously-mentioned builder used rivets instead of screws. The hinges had to be installed pin-side down to keep the surface as flat as possible. To do this, every hole in the hinges had to be countersunk on the back side of the hinges to allow the screws to be flush with the surface of the hinge. It was a lot of work, but the covering will be smooth and it should look very nice.

The rivets that were used on the other piece had low-profile heads and the "peened", or "set", or "flared" (or whatever you call it) end was flush with the wood. Having experienced this first-hand, I would still like to try the rivet technique if I can find out what type rivet to use and figure out how to set them.

Thanks for your advice, everyone...

Jim and mkiger,

Thanks to both for the tips.

Ideally, the best screws for my purpose would be brass plated steel. They tap themselves so no other tool is required. They aren't as soft as solid brass, so they won't snap off in the holes, and they are already the right color to match the hinges.

Problem is, the ones that come with the hinges are usually too long, or worse yet, there are no screws, but idiot-inspired brass nails. My options have been, either pre-tap with a steel screw and finish off with a brass screw of appropriate length, or pre-tap with the steel screw, then cut the screw short enough to reinsert for finishing off. The first option elimminates a step, but uses an inferior product in solid brass screws. The second option seems reasonable until you get up beyond about a hundred screws and realize that cutting them all shorter is a !@#$%.

Jim, Thanks for the offer on the boxwood. Woodcraft has a pretty good bit in stock right now. I was there earlier today... bought something else, but at least know my options there. Orange Osage is native around here, I believe, but I have never seen it available here as lumber.

What are the specific properties that make these two woods desirable over something like say, hard maple, cherry, or other very common dense, tight-grained woods that machine nicely?

~michael

Bolt throught the plywood using flat head machine screws and t-nuts on the other. You could inset the t-nuts into the plywood if it has to be absolutely flat. A forstner bit works best for this.

Michael,

I located a source for the brass plated screws. They have a large selection in sizes I have never seen before.

http://www.crafters-mart.com/Hardware/Br......ews.html

As far as the rivet setting tools, the hand type formers and dies can be found at

http://www.eleathersupply.com/snaprivetspikeset.shtml

I hope it helps.

Mkiger,

It absolutely helps! Thanks much!

~michael