Hi Kent,

Regards magicians per capita...

I just checked the CAM website and learned that Saskatchewan has only 5 CAM members. Ontario has 215. If you were financially responsible for the CAM convention and needed to make it easy for the majority of your members to attend where would you host it?

As mentioned earlier... its all about paying the bills or there is no convention. Sad but true. Finances make the decisions for us.

Best,

Tim

http://www.canadianassociationofmagician......WAN.html
http://www.canadianassociationofmagicians.com/ONTARIO.html

Hey...I've got nothing against Ontario or Ontarians. It's just that, and correct me if I'm wrong, this thread seems to be about moving the convention. I happened to notice that the mentioned locations were somewhat polar and suggested something more central. Say what you want about numbers, but your response seemed very region-centric; it wasn't just about numbers...it was about where those numbers were coming from. In any case, I happen to like the idea of a convention that changes location...like PCAM, as well as some conventions I attended when I was involved in academia. But it seems like that is not feasible here, which is too bad, because while I'm sure I'll enjoy being a CAM member, I'll probably never attend a convention.

As for your busking comments, I don't really "busk" in the tradional sense. When I work on the street, it's more of a marketing venture than a money-making one. I don't work the crowd as a true busker would or use hat lines and such; it's more of a way to get my cards and brochures out...there's a different vibe than busking per se. Most of my work is small-stage stand-up and event walkaround...which I've done as far north as people have asked me to come (and out of province), as long as they pay what I ask. I guess, too, the busking comparison doesn't really work for me because it makes it all about finding a good pitch and filling your hat, which cuts out the aspects of fraternity and community. But if what you say about numbers is true and it's all about the money generated from the Ontario-based members, then the convention will not move, and this thread is moot.

If the convention ever did get more mobile, though, I'd be more than happy to assist in whatever way I could with setting something up Saskatchewan. I lived in Saskatoon for 12 years and am pretty familiar with the venues, hotels, etc. Right now, I'm close enough to Regina to work with facilities there, as well. In the meantime, keep an eye out in the future for the Itunapalooza Festival of Magic... if I'm able to get it off the ground, I hope to see you there.

Is it really the number of CAM members that should be the deciding factor, or should it be the number of magicians? Could interest in CAM and membership be increased by moving the convention around? Would it foster a greater national interest in magic? We keep assuming that the numbers won't work, but has anybody tried? Certainly other conventions seem to be successful in major centres outside of Ontario. Why should magic be any different?

I'm not suggesting this to be argumentative or to criticize the CAM in any way, shape or form. The Association and the convention have a sterling reputation. My comments are only made in the hopes of making CAM even better by allowing the organization to have a truly national reach.

Having said this, I do recognize and agree with your concern about the economics of making such an event successful. If any such move is going to be made, it must be made by some individual(s) or organization with sufficient capital strength to ensure it's success. You also need to inspire the confidence of the dealers and the lecturer's to attend. If these issues are addressed, it should be theoretically possible to move the convention to other major cities.

I guess at the end of the day, the key question becomes one of purpose. What is the stated purpose of the CAM Convention? Is it to simply make money? Or is it designed to inspire magic and magicans on a national level?

Kent

Well Kent,

It'd be great if the CAM made money. Maybe the misunderstanding that it does is what makes people think it would travel well. The fact is that the CAM does not make a profit. It's not a matter of making money but rather a matter of not losing money.

The CAM is what it is because of Joan Ceasar and her ability to enlist the help of numerous volunteers who are willing to pitch in to help offset expenses. Moneys brought in from registrations goes towards expenses like paying for the lecturers and professional acts. It's a delicate balancing act every two years and not an easy one at that. Did you ever wonder why the CAM is every two years and not every year? Its just too much work and juggling to pull off every year. If it was a profit maker you'd think it would happen every year.

Joan has managed to pull a bunch of local resourses together to make it happen and it does continue to grow and improve each time. Its those local resources and many unpaid volunteers from that pool of the 215 local members ( and other CAM members out of province ) that make it happen...not just the registration fees from those that attend. I won't go into too much detail but I can tell you from first hand knowledge that I would not want Joans burdens or responsibilties related to CAM. They are staggering and I don't know how or why she does it other than the fact that she is Joan and that she loves the art of magic. All this for $0 and a heck of a lot of headaches.

So when I say.... it shouldn't be moved I really mean it can't be moved. I think it'd be great to see it in other parts of Canada but unless someone else is willing to pony up the resources and financial responsibility it ain't gonna happen. So in answering Kents question I'll say... there IS a CAM convention because someone wants to inspire magic and magicians on a national level. Joan does!

I've said my peice and I don't think there is really a lot more to say. Those involved understand why it can't be moved and those who are not involved will simply have to trust those who are. If not ... I don't see how they can be convinced.

Too those attending... I hope to meet you there and to those not planning on attending ... I hope to meet you there.

Best,

Tim

Well said Tim.

I really do appreciate all of the hard work and dedication that Joan puts into CAM and the Convention. I don't think anything should be taken away from Joan's achievements. But what happens if someday, Joan is unable or unwilling to continue wth her efforts? Hopefully, that doesn't mean the demise of everything she has worked so hard to achieve. This is without a doubt one of Joan's finest accomplishments. It should also be a legacy that can withstand the test of time. Maybe that's a more important issue than where the convention is held?

Just a thought.

Kent

Thanks Kent,

You pose a very good question. Joan IS the convention currently but hopefully as time moves on and the convention grows ( as well as CAM membership ) others will take on more responsibilities so one day it will be less dependant on one person. How can we make this happen???? Well.. registering , attending, having a great time meeting others, learning more about CAM first hand and supporting the convention in these early years would be a great place to start.

Best,

Tim

Just thought I'd update my last post with the fact that to the best of my knowledge most conventions hosted my magic orgs ( and not just CAM ) are run the same way and are not intended to reap a profit. Proceeds from registrations are used for neccessary expenses only and cost is kept down with the help of volunteers. An expample of this is the fact that most convention websites are built and maintained by volunteers and not paid webmasters.

Best,

Tim

Half of Ontario and the eastern provinces are in Oil Rich Alberta anyway looking for the all mighty dollar. Might as well enjoy a magic Convention as well.

I think the numbers speak for themselves on the Ontario thing.

I also still can not understand what is wrong with Toronto.

Also, although it is smallish, the Falls would be a great place as well. They are trying to make it the "Canadian Vagas" and the only thing really not in full force there is magic. Only Greg Frewin's Theater as far as I can tell, so I think it would be a great way to boost the Falls and there is still just as much to do there, if not more than most of the other places suggested.

There's Frewin's theater, and it is in Ontario, and like I said, the numbers speak for themselves on that one.

Whats wrong with Toronto?

Well if you're willing to pay 3 times the rate for your hotel room and 3 times as much for lecture, show or convention space then Toronto it is!!!! Don't forget about those parking rates. We all know about that cheap TO parking don't we? Of course you'd be willing to pay 3 times the CAM registration as well to cover such expenses on the conventions part?

What do you think the odds are of getting a decent hotel price in Niagara Falls during the height of the Niagara Tourist season??? Have you ever priced a room in Niagara during the summer???

Any more well thought out ideas?

Best,

Tim

Ouch. Wasn't really thinking about the price for Toronto, true, but I gathered people had different problems with it, and those were what I didn't get.

As for the Falls they really that bad too? Lots of the other big things are done in places like NY aren't they.

As for location and such, wouldn't the Falls be better for pirce? At least better than TO.

Hi gdw,

Actually Niagara is as BAD or worse than Toronto. When the tourist season hits the hotel rates skyrocket. I just checked a hotel on tripadvisor.com in Niagara that currently is under $99 a night. During the weekend of the convention it is $337.00 for the same room. This is a standard room in a mid-priced hotel.

So you see.... Joan is a pretty smart cookie putting on such a great convention and keeping it affordable at the same time. The location she chooses is an important part of that successful formula.

I apologize if my posts seem a little short on patience. Knowing just how much Joan has thought all this through it gets my feathers ruffled when people question her reasoning. Hope nobody takes offence to my rants..LOL

Best,

Tim

Don't worry Tim. I'm actually a big fan of keeping it in Kitchener.

Obviously the price is not prone to foundationless highjacking like the more tourist heavy locals and it is still a decently sized city with it's own tourist industry.

Plus there is the new magic shop there now, and my fiance lives there and I used to live there, lol.

However, I now live near the Falls,

I just figure IF it were to be moved, those places would be nice in their own way, but obviusly not practical I guess.

I know Joan as well, and she puts a hell of a lot into CAM. I still don't understand why people want it moved. Is it perhaps a matter of the vocal minority? Or just people looking for variety?

Kitchener may not have a straight road in it, but it's still a great location for the convention.

I hope that any change of location would apply to the ones after this year as I actually have yet to attend one really and have started planing to get to this one.

Hi gdw,

I forgot to mention something else. I doubt the Frewin Theatre would be available in June as based on the growing success of the show the Frewins would be foolish to pass on the revenue of a paying audience to rent the theatre to a private group.

See ya at CAM,

Tim

LOL, I wasn't thinkning about actually holding the con there, but that would be interesting.

I just figured it would be a nice plus to being in the area.

Hamilton, ontario or toronto, or niagara fall, ontario would be great places

I was looking at the CAM convention page this evening for the first time in a while, and noticed the announcement that there are more registrants than ever before, and that people are being referred to several different hotels for lodging.

The Delta facilities already seemed crowded enough last time as it was.

If the CAM convention gets any larger, it may have no choice BUT to move.

I just found out about PCAM.

Why would anyone see a need to move the CAM convention outside of Ontario and out west when they already have a west coast CAM convention?

Not dismissing the idea of a move alltogether, but just the earlier talk about moving it out West.

What the heck are they talking about? There's one already there. No need to move this one out there too.

I don't think that's the point. There are lots of meetings out west, just as there are many meetings out east. The question is whether the one NATIONAL meeting should always meet in one city, or rotate across the nation as do national meetings for many / most other societies / professions.