I recently decided to learn a memorized deck and decided to go with Tamariz's Mnemonica, primarily due to the ability go to and from Stay Stacks and New Deck Order. I have yet to actually buy a book on memorized decks, but I will probably go with Mnemonica because I decided to learn that stack.

I have been using Phoenix brand decks have have greatly enjoyed them, but one problem with the Mnemonic stack's ability to go to and from new deck order is that the Phoenix decks have a different new deck order. Phoenix decks have the ability to easily shuffle into the stack with only minor changes from what is described in Juan Tamariz's book. But I have not been able to find a way to get back into the new deck order of the Phoenix deck from the stack. Thus when going from the stack to new deck order, rather than getting the Phoenix new deck order I end up with Tamariz's new deck order , which I believe is the standard in Spain.

The difference in the new deck order between Tamariz's new deck order and the Phoenix new deck order is as follows.

If spread face up from left to right:
Tamariz A-K of S, A-K of H, K-A of D, A-K of C
Phoenix A-K of C, A-K of D, K-A of H, A-K of S

The difference is a complete mirroring. As such I know I could just run every card in the deck to switch back and fourth between the new deck orders, but I was hoping to avoid that. Getting into the stack from either new deck order is very similar and I know both methods, but I prefer the handling for the Phoenix deck. As such I am hoping to find a way to go from the stack to the Phoenix new deck order. This would to make it easier and more consistent for me and would allow me to avoid accidentally doing the wrong method of getting into the stack caused by to forgetting which new deck order I started with.

Knowing that the Phoenix deck was intentionally designed with the ability to easily get into Tamariz's Mnemonica stack I am hoping that there also a relatively easy way to get back into the Phoenix deck new deck order from the stack.

I realize that I did not post this in the secret sessions thread as such I would like to either learn of a source that may have the answer to my search or a PM if someone is willing to share a method. Also I could make a near identical thread in the Secret Sessions thread if that would be desired by the community.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Go to www.release-the-power.com sign up and get password e-mailed to you. go into the vids and vid number 8 tells you exactly why they are in the order they are, and he takes you step by step into Tamariz stack.

As far as a way to memorize the stack, you may want to try https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-......ry-arts/
I just picked up the Aronson edition and it really made the stack order 'click' for me. There is also a thread in this forum on the Tamariz edition.

Thank you Poof-Daddy for your response.

I have been to www.release-the-power.com and know how to get into the Tamariz stack from Phoenix new deck order. This was not the problem I am having. My problem and question is how to get from the Tamariz stack to the Phoenix deck new deck order. The way I have found to get from the stack to new deck order gets me to a new deck order that is a mirror of the Phoenix deck new deck order (do to this being the new deck order that Tamariz was working with). As I stated in my previous post I know how to get into the stack from either of the new deck order, but I prefer the method from the Phoenix deck slightly more and so I would like to be able to get from the Stack to the Phoenix new deck order rather than the other new deck order.

In other words: How do I get from the Tamariz stack to the new deck order used in the Phoenix deck?

As far as memorization I will look into your recommendation. So far I have just been using rote/blunt memorization. With this I can name the whole deck in order, though I am still working on simply being able to think of a card and its number (without needing to remember the cards near it).

This appears incorrect to me. The European order Tamariz based his stack on is symmetrical (similar to UPCC order).

Anyway, you have an opportunity to do something that has bothered me when it comes to Americans (and others who want to learn the Tamariz stack but use cards in non-European order). Instead of reverse-counting the spades and clubs (or whatever you do), simply create a stack slightly different than the official configuration: make it so whatever is a club in Tamariz's stack is a spade in your own. Now you no longer need to bother with the reverse-counting.

Most people probably memorize the stack before coming to this realization and figure it's easier to reverse-count for the rest of eternity than memorize a "new" stack.

Cain Thank you for your correction of the new deck order. For both new deck orders it is AK,AK,KA,KA in the European S,H,D,C and in the Phoenix C,D,H,S so they simply mirror each-other. That was a a typo that I didn't catch in my original post.

To clearify the difference between getting into the stack from the European new deck order and the Phoenix new deck order. With the European after you run the 26 cards you put those cards back on top of the deck. Where with the Phoenix You after running the 26 cards you put them under the rest of the deck (like in a regular overhand shuffle). With the difference being so simple I am hoping that there is also a simple way to make the equivalent change when going to new deck order.

Just for the fun of it I shuffled the phoenix new deck order in the regular way for the Tamariz stack. It does make the exact same order just inverted (switching hearts and diamonds, and switching spades and clubs). Without having read any actual material on the Tamariz stack the only problem that I could see with just using this inverted Tamariz stack would be some built-in effects such as spelling effects or possibly poker deals (assuming there is one for straight flush of spades which is seen as the highest straight flush and in which case inverting suits would seem less powerful). Though others may know of more problems than what I can think of. But as you have mentioned most probably just memorized the regular Tamariz stack and and ignored the possibility of the inverted stack.

Now I have a few questions.

1)The original of this thread:
How do I get from the Tamariz stack to the new deck order used in the Phoenix deck?

2) Has anyone used this inverted Tamariz stack?

3)What are the pros and cons of an inverted Tamariz compared to the original order?

1) Do what you said but with a face-up OH rather than face-down.
2) You can swap suits in any arrangement to get a different NDO (AKAKKAKA), so there are 24 different Tamariz stacks you could use. For example, one of them will correspond to Bicycle NDO.
3) Stack dependent things that depend on suits (and possibly colors if you aren't just swapping blacks and reds) will be different, but no major disadvantages.

AlecStephenson
I am not really sure what you are meaning with your first point.

If you are referring to when I said:

To clarify the difference between getting into the stack from the European new deck order and the Phoenix new deck order. With the European after you run the 26 cards you put those cards back on top of the deck. Where with the Phoenix You after running the 26 cards you put them under the rest of the deck (like in a regular overhand shuffle). With the difference being so simple I am hoping that there is also a simple way to make the equivalent change when going to new deck order.

I am not asking how to immediately undo the overhand shuffle, but how to undo that effect after doing the last step to get into the stack(the partial farrow). Do to the farro I do not think the fix is as simple as doing a face up Over Hand shuffle.

As I mentioned I have not yet actually read any material on the Tamariz stack. I have only found how how to get into it from NDO (both European and Phoenix) and one method for getting from the stack to European NDO (from a youtube video). With this is mind I must ask, are there many "stack dependent things" that are suit or color dependent?

I understand now what I was unclear about. Maybe to better understand your question of getting from the stack 'back' into NDO, "Why" do you need to get back to NDO? I too am just entering the realm of stack work and so far all "I" have wondered is how to maintain my stack after an effect (meaning maintaining stack order rather than NDO).

I know this isn't what people trying to memorize the Tamariz stack want to hear, but I'll say it anyway: Why bother? Just adjust the NDO to a stay-stack condition by displacing a suit (e.g., B-R-R-B, or R-B-B-R), then give it four out-faros and a cut (I cut ten cards from the bottom to the top, so an 8 is on the face). Now if you want to "get into" stay-stack you just cut 10 cards from the top to the bottom (or 36 cards from the top to the bottom). If you want to go back to NDO you just give the pack four out-faros. Simple. With Tamariz's stack, not only is there an extra step (or two) to get into Mnemonica, but to go into stay-stack you have to undo the 18 card partial-faro (which I believe involves also reversing cards). Why bother?

This applies only to people strongly interested in moving from NDO-to-stack and vice-versa. If there's some trick specific to Mnemonica that you want -- or better yet, NEED -- to perform, then this logic would not apply.

To answer your question: Simply reverse the sequence from Phoenix New Deck Order to Mnemonica.

Starting from Phoenix NDO out faro four times. The deck has transformed to the mirror image of Spanish NDO after four out faros. Because it's Spanish NDO's mirror you need to reverse the 26 cards starting with the Ace Of Clubs to the Nine Of Spades.

The reason the Phoenix Deck is ordered this way is to throw the remaining non-run 26 cards over the run half, not under(which might be construed as awkward).

To get back to Phoenix NDO from Mnemonica, reverse the process. After your 18 card cull run 26 cards so that the Ace of Clubs is on the top of the pack and the Ace of Spades is on the face. 4 out faros later(the same as 4 anti faros with a 52 card deck) and viola!

I suggest you study the anatomy of the faro shuffle.

As an example. What happens when you give a 52 card deck an in faro followed by 7 out faros?
How about an out faro followed by an in faro followed by 6 out faros?

Best,
Jed

My advice is to buy Mnemonica and study it thoroughly. Not as a magician mind you. But as someone who wants to learn the specific language of the stack.
Oh, one more thing. Read pages 79 to 81 very carefully.

Best,
Jed

I wonder if anyone has ever thought or read something about why Juan Tamariz constructed the stack as he did? We know his aim was to have something that can be shuffled into from Phoenix NDO. But

- 4 out faros. This is understandable as it lies half way through the 8 out faros cycle back to NDO.
- reverse the top 26 cards. This is understandable as hiding the mirror symmetry of staystack. But why 26? He could have used some other number (say 13) and that would require less running of single cards.
- out faro of top 18 into the rest. Why 18? Is it just that this is about 1/3 of the deck? Or is there something special that 18 accomplishes?
- move 9 cards to the bottom. Why 9 and not some other number such as 8 or 10? Maybe he wanted to position AS (a popular choice of card) at 7 (a popular number)? But maybe AS at 3 and QH at 7 would also have been a nice choice. Or maybe the coincidence of 9 cards and 9D is a nice way to remember what to do.

Some fun facts I discovered today (maybe already well-known)

1. Exactly three cards are unmoved from NDO by this procedure, those at positions 9, 39 and 44 (9S, AD, 9C). In a truly random ordering of the cards there will be on average one card that has not moved from its starting position. This shows that mnemonica order is atypical of random ordering. The chance that a random shuffling has 3 or more cards in the same places that they started is only about 0.08. Although this could be considered cherry-picking amongst ways in which we could look for a difference between the mnemonica stack and typical randomness. For example we could also cherry-pick the fact that mnemonica never has a run of four cards of the same colour in a row. Whereas in a randomly shuffled deck there are on average 5.4 cards which are followed by 3 of the same colour.

2. Repeating the procedure of preparing mnemonica stack on the mnemonica stack itself, and then repeating this multiple times (4 out faros ... all the way through to moving 9 cards from top to bottom): this will eventually return the deck to NDO. However, you will need to be very good at faro shuffling since it will take 4620 repetitions of the procedure to do this! This is because mnemonica order is a permutation of NDO that decomposes into cycles of lengths 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 7 ,7, 11, 12. The least common multiple of these numbers is 5x7x11x12 = 4620.