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NicholasD25 Veteran user 387 Posts 
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Dirtyfoucault, yes and yes.
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dirtyfoucault Special user UK 736 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 20, 2021, NicholasD25 wrote: Thanks man. With your help I finally nailed it over the weekend 
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SteveFromSpokane Regular user 199 Posts
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I know this is an old thread but I really like this trick.
Without giving away any information in a non-secret session I wonder about others opinion of the last sequence. It almost falls into that "too good to be true" category. It feels as if the spectator is not given any possible "out". Feel free to pm me if you have similar thoughts. Have been working in my head for an alternate ending. |
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Francois Lagrange Veteran user Paris, France 384 Posts
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Quote:
On Jan 1, 2022, SteveFromSpokane wrote: If you think that, then maybe you should stick with the original Dr Daley's Last Trick? Or altenatively, try Fechter's Be Honest, What is it? which is a terrific trick.
Protect me from my friends, I'll deal with my enemies.
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Jon Allen V.I.P. England 1771 Posts
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Having performed it thousands of times over many years, you don’t need to change anything.
Trust me on this one
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more. Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1717 Posts
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Quote:
Having performed it thousands of times over many years, you don't need to change anything. Jon, what suits you might not suit other performers. Don't get me wrong, the premise of "Double Back" is strong. Still, your presentation of the effect won't automatically fit everyone who tries it, especially hobbyists who predominantly perform for friends and family. Steve, it sounds like you're struggling with the Too Perfect Theory as it applies to the classic two-by-two transposition. I agree that it does suffer from this issue, and you must provide a red herring to hide the method successfully. However, there are a few ways you could do this with "Double Back" without making significant changes to the trick's presentation. Jon's "quicker than the eye" comment suggests a clever sleight-of-hand switch is used. I prefer a line that suggests the effect involves manipulating people's memories, so use a presentation based on the unreliable nature of eye-witness accounts, i.e. creating a memory that the spectators could not have seen. Another packet trick you could apply this presentation to is "Limited Edition" by Gordon Bean and Larry Jennings. I think Eugene Burger did something similar with it. Marty |
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Levi Bennett Inner circle 1796 Posts
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This trick needs no alternate ending. It's wonderful magic. The reactions from this are stellar.
That doesn't mean don't pursue something you might want to try. Be creative. Whatever. But this is just too good to mess with in my opinion and you might ruin a great thing. I've had visceral, emotional reactions ranging from stunned disbelief to actual anger. Long story about that guy, but he liked to see tricks and always got mad. Mine was worn out and rather than make my own I just bought it again from Penguin. Should be here tomorrow. I can't wait to be doing this classic again, it's been a while.
Performing magic unprofessionally since 2008!
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CardGuyMike Special user 797 Posts
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I just got this (inherited from a friend) and I wasn't aware of it before. It seems like it's essentially NFW but with different cards and a different premise. So I have to ask -- what is the lineage of this trick compared with NFW (and Richard Sanders' Ace for that matter)? Were they created independently? Inspired by each other? Which one came first?
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1211 Posts
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Francois mentions the original effect about 4 posts above yours
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Nikodemus Inner circle 1211 Posts
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On Jan 1, 2022, SteveFromSpokane wrote: That's what makes it seem like magic! Rather than an alternative ending, you should perhaps create an opportunity to clean up. (Or is that what you meant?) |
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CardGuyMike Special user 797 Posts
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On Aug 7, 2022, Nikodemus wrote: The two effects he mentioned are really quite different. It doesn't address the whole NFW/Ace/Double Back issue. |
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Jon Allen V.I.P. England 1771 Posts
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On Aug 8, 2022, CardGuyMike wrote: NFW - Four jokers turn face down one at a time then change to four aces. Ace - Four jokers change to four aces Double Back - Two 5s instantly change places with two Kings. What’s the issue?
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more. Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk |
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CardGuyMike Special user 797 Posts
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On Aug 8, 2022, Jon Allen wrote: Same gaffs/method. That was my question. Not an attack of any kind. |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1717 Posts
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"NFW" by Gary Freed came first. It was initially released in the late 1990s by Elmwood Magic (1999).
"Double Back" by Jon Allen has been around for a long time as well. I remember seeing it performed in the dealer's hall at the Blackpool Magic Convention years ago. I'm sure Jon can tell us when it was first released. Although the tricks are different in effect, they share similarities in method. "NFW" is clearly a variation of Twisting the Aces (in fact, it was, most likely, inspired by "Twixter" by Jason Alford). However, the re-release by Penguin Magic includes variations that dispense with the twisting phase. "Double Back" is a variation of Dr Daley's Last Trick. I like the premise and presentation of the trick, but there's no real need to use gaffs as the same effect can be performed with regular playing cards. Again, there's nothing wrong with the method, but it is far from perfect (any trick using the same method as "NFW" and "Double Back" is a pain because of the reset). However, I will say that these methods can work well for some performers and look great on social media because they bear repeat viewings. "Ace" by Richard Sanders was first released as "4 Card Crunch" on his Supercards DVD (circa 2004). He also released it as a stand-alone packet trick called "Ten" as well (I prefer this presentation to "Ace"). The new handling of "NFW" by Rick Lax is, essentially, the same as the one invented by Richard Sanders (no credit is given in the videos). Marty |
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CardGuyMike Special user 797 Posts
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Thanks Marty. That's really interesting background. The history of magic fascinates me.
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Jon Allen V.I.P. England 1771 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 8, 2022, martyjacobs wrote: Double Back was created in 2001 and released in 2002 at the IBM convention in San Diego. Funnily enough, I was able to have a small area of Elmwood Magic's stand. Quote:
"Double Back" is a variation of Dr Daley's Last Trick. I like the premise and presentation of the trick, but there's no real need to use gaffs as the same effect can be performed with regular playing cards. Again, there's nothing wrong with the method, but it is far from perfect (any trick using the same method as "NFW" and "Double Back" is a pain because of the reset). However, I will say that these methods can work well for some performers and look great on social media because they bear repeat viewings. The use of a gaff is dependent on how far you want to push an effect. While DDLT uses no gaffs, it is also nowhere near as visually strong. The presentation afforded by the cards helps add to the strength of the effect. I have seen the reactions over thousands of performances and can tell you that the moment I reveal the cards in my hand have changed from what they saw a moment ago, and are now on the table/in someone's hand is what I strive to achieve with all that I do. As for being a pain to reset, nothing could be further from the truth. At the end of the routine, the cards are instantly reset and ready to go for the next performance. Double Back is not just about the effect. The presentation is also a major part of it. In fact, if I were asked to show just one card trick, I would do Double Back. Why? Because it not only involves the audience directly but the premise is based on assumptions people have about how magicians do their tricks and blows them out the water. I use it as a pre-cursor to the main card trick for any group, whether two people or a large table of 15 or so.
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more. Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk |
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1717 Posts
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Quote:
Double Back was created in 2001 and released in 2002 at the IBM convention in San Diego. Funnily enough, I was able to have a small area of Elmwood Magic's stand. Thanks for the information, Jon. I had a feeling that it was almost as old as "NFW". Quote:
As for being a pain to reset, nothing could be further from the truth. At the end of the routine, the cards are instantly reset and ready to go for the next performance. Sorry, I wasn't being particularly clear; I was not referring to the specific reset for "Double Back", but rather the general issues related to resetting any packet trick that relies on DST. They do require more careful handling and upkeep than tricks that do not use it; that's really what I meant to say. Is the extra effort worth it? Yes, sometimes. However, for a variation of Dr Daley's Last Trick, I don't feel it is 100% necessary, given I can perform the trick with regular cards. For example, Daryl's handling called "The Trick Question" has similarities to your presentation and I've found it plays just as well as "Double Back". Quote:
Double Back is not just about the effect. The presentation is also a major part of it. In fact, if I were asked to show just one card trick, I would do Double Back. Why? Because it not only involves the audience directly but the premise is based on assumptions people have about how magicians do their tricks and blows them out the water. I use it as a pre-cursor to the main card trick for any group, whether two people or a large table of 15 or so. I agree. In fact, I like the presentation so much that I developed a version that uses no gaffs soon after it was released, based on your presentation; it does, however, use two blank-faced playing cards to provide an additional kicker (I ask my participants to forget the identity of the two tabled cards, then reveal that the cards are blank). This is why I feel the gaffs are not necessary (at least for me). I do, from time to time, use your version when I have the cards on me. Don't get me wrong, I think "Double Blank" is a good packet trick, but I do struggle to justify the use of gaffs for this particular effect. |
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Jon Allen V.I.P. England 1771 Posts
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Almost as old as NFW but not quite. I am demoing it for people who weren't born when it was created which is quite scary!
Of course, everyone has different requirements when it comes to what tricks they perform. For me, I have no qualms about using gaffs. If they can afford me a moment I couldn't get either visually or as fairly then I will use them. Is it worth it to for the look I see on people's faces? Absolutely! While you don't feel the need to use gaffs, I wouldn't add a kicker For me, Double Back is a presentational tool to show that laymen's thoughts on how magic works is not correct. I will show this before I go on to use those exact same thoughts in a card routine! Adding a kicker such as blank face cards takes it away from an explanation and into a stand alone magic tick. That's not to say it doesn't work; just that I created Double Back with the 'let me just take some cards form the deck and show you something' premise in mind.
Any performance that engages an audience, delivers strong magical moments and makes an audience care is all good!
Creator of iconic magic that you will want to perform.
The Silent Treatment, The Pain Game, Paragon 3D, Double Back, Destination Box and more. Available at www.onlinemagicshop.co.uk |
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Andy Moss Special user 713 Posts
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I purchased this effect back in 2001 and still have the original one page orange (!) instructions.
I choose to have the finger tips of my closed palms quickly touch the finger tips of the closed palms of the spectator. This remedies the 'too good to be true' concern (if there is one). I also switch out the 'special card' (hidden pocket in black packet trick wallet) which places me in the position of being able to extract both face up 5's to the spectator as a seeming afterthought after they have examined their kings.If done skilfully the two 5's will appear to have never left their sight. This works for me but may not for you. Neither is really necessary. Double Back remains one of the very strongest card effects out there. If you do not already own it then do not hesitate to do so. Yes, It IS a definite improvement on the Dr Daley original. Allen's Double Back and Trost's Four Ace routine remain my favourite variants on the theme. |
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kebmo3108 Regular user Austria 115 Posts
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Glad I found this thread. I heard about double back long ago, but somehow it flew under my radar.
It always makes me happy to find an effect which already stood the test of time and fits your style. Those are the keepers. |
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Posted: Feb 20, 2021 07:05 pm 
