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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1709 Posts 
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@magicfish,
I can't see a Flushtration Count in these videos, either. Tommy Wonder repeatedly flashes the back of the packet as a substitution for the move, which isn't really the same thing. This can, in certain circumstances, lead to a more "natural" Handling. Vallarino is using a very loose and casual handling of his R****a Count. I love the way he handles playing cards. Yes, it looks like something only a magician would do. But we don't expect a ballerina to dance the same way we would in a nightclub, do we?! I greatly admire this more artistic approach to card magic, and many laymen like it, too. If anyone is interested in this kind of count, they should study the work of Brother John Hamman, J.P. Vallarino, Boris Wild and Yves Doumergue. Marty |
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3079 Posts
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Whoever keeps saying ther are "brutally honest," does that mean that others are not honest because their opinions are different than yours?
As for the dl--my opinion is that a lot of people feel it is a beginner move and they can coast because it is technically easy to do. Just because nobody says anything doesn't mean they didn't catch you. And this is merely an opinion. Like Mr. BUrger |
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3079 Posts
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And furthermore: I saw Pop Haydn lecture here in Evanston, Illinois and he fooled an audience of magicians with his ambitious card, and guess what move nobody suspected?
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1709 Posts
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I knew I was experiencing a serious feeling of Déjà vu! We discussed this very issue a few years ago to great length. I recall that I got accused of over thinking the issue. Maybe I was. Here's the link for those patient enough to read it:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......c=328424 There are some great posts hidden in this very long thread. Whit, Barry, Steven and Andrew made some thought-provoking arguments. In short, I think most participants in the original thread agreed that the DL/DT issue could be resolved by performing the sleight during a moment of relaxation. I still agree with Eugene's criticism of the structure of the routine. In my experience, the second phase does sometimes tip the method to a lateral thinker. I currently perform "Chicago Surprise", my own variant called "Two Hot to Trot", as well as the original (from time-to-time). If I could only perform one version, I'd choose Whit's take on the plot. Marty |
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lynnef Inner circle 1408 Posts
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As far as Darwin Ortiz and the flushtration count, although he said he didn't particularly like it (on a tape); nevertheless it was necessary for the Jumpin' Gemini trick. He did NOT avoid it at all. Come to think of it, the Gemini move is pretty weird too, but very useful for a number of effects. Lynn
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 23, 2018, magicfish wrote: +1 Hamman Count in the Wonder video.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7042 Posts
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I think Aaron Sterling is confused.
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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Quote:
On Aug 23, 2018, martyjacobs wrote: Yikes. Back then I could be a real jerk when trying to make a point. Cocaine is a harsh mistress.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1709 Posts
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Quote:
Yikes. Back then I could be a real jerk when trying to make a point. Cocaine is a harsh mistress. I actually think it was quite a productive discussion in the end. The passionate opinions connected to this trick are a testament to the popularity of the plot with laymen. Good to see you back on the boards, Andrew. |
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kebmo3108 Regular user Austria 115 Posts
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Chicago Opener is an awesome Trick but I do understand Mr. Burger. The longer I am dealing with magic (as a Hobbyist) the more I have enough of the DL. Seeing tricks with a DL , is ... how can I put it,..... they loose a Little Bit of attraction as you know immediatly how it works... BUT........ that is a magician point of view... for Layman the tricks are still awesome and they have no clue what is going on.....at least here in Austria where nobody has ever heard of a DL
 . Btw, Pop Hayden‘s Version is very good. There is also one Version with basically no DL at all. It is called Manhatten Opener by Michael Feldmann. It uses 2 old principles in card magic but it is a total fooler, even for Magicians. You have to prepare a little something in Advance while Chicago Opener can easiely performed by adding the card to a normal deck during performance which makes it a miracle. So It does not have to be a opener in my Opinion. It is the perfect example for using a DL. And to make the DL perfect You could Even use a Little bit of Science F........
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martydoesmagic Inner circle Essex, UK 1709 Posts
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I thought it would aid the discussion to quote Eugene directly on this matter. I've also included the questions (from Andrew Pinard) that prompted Eugene to raise the issue, as I believe context is important here.
Quote:
AP: There are two ways of perceiving what good magic is. There's the perspective of the performer who has to present. And there's the perspective of the audience who is to receive. From the perspective of an audience member, what do you consider good magic? There have been some discourteous comments aimed at Eugene and his approach to magic in this thread. I think that they're totally unjustified. I don't mind if you don't like his magic, or his particular style. But please read his books before you criticise him! For me, he was a profound magical thinker. He used his philosophical knowledge to turn his tricks into pieces of art. He understood the transformational power of magic better than almost any other performer. This article is proof of that: http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainm......ory.html In other words, he deserves all the credit he gets. Oh, and as far as I can tell, Eugene never stopped performing close-up as a professional magician. He was a sought after performer in the Chicago area right up to his passing. The magic world is much poorer in his absence. Eugene deserves our love, thanks and respect. Marty P.S. You can watch the rest of the interview in issue 12 of Reel Magic Magazine. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7042 Posts
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"Eugene never stopped performing close-up as a professional magician. He was a sought after performer in the Chicago area right up to his passing."
Correct. Another point of confusion for Mr. Sterling. |
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Rainboguy Inner circle 1915 Posts
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On a side note, Red Hot Mama was one of the favorite and featured tricks of the late, GREAT Jim Ryan of Chicago, one of my (and, I might add, the late Tom Mullica's HEROES of Magic)....
For those who don't know him or have not seen him work, I would like to introduce you to my friend, all-around-great guy, and terrific close-up Magician, Dan Fleshman.........you can check his take on Red Hot Mama here: http://www.llpub.com/index.php?main_page......_id=2032 Pop Haydn: I hope you've had the chance to hang out with Dan when he has been at The Magic Castle...... |
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lynnef Inner circle 1408 Posts
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There's an excellent article in July 2011 Genii by Jamy Ian Swiss on the DL where he references Eugene Burger "who does not use the DL, and this is very much to his credit." Worth reading, in that he stresses the importance of mastering the move .."if you can't resist the temptation." Lynn
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts
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I adored and respected Eugene, and he guided me artfully early on in my magic, but it seems to me that when you eliminate something as ubiquitous as the DL, you are artificially limiting yourself.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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magicfish Inner circle 7042 Posts
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Quote:
On Sep 3, 2018, danaruns wrote: And he knew that and was okay with that. |
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topchange52 Regular user 178 Posts
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Re the Chicago opener I understand his concern that all "the heat" is on the DL. To alleviate this I do the classic CO but although the first card is freely chosen I glimpse it, so before I do the DL I show the odd backed card and name it before turning it over. At the same time I ask the question what was the card you chose? I have never been called out on doing it this way.
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MikeLarkin New user 86 Posts
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I don’t think Eugene’s opinion holds much water here - Red Hot Mama gets amazing reactions.
The idea that the double lift is a bad move is also foolish. Overused, yes, but the move itself is a good one. There is a reason guys like Leipzig, Vernon, Wayne Dobson and Peter Kane made judicious use of the sleight. |
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Alan Munro.jpg "View Profile") Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5958 Posts
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I've seen DLs that run the gamut from horrible to could be better to perfect. I've seen the whole range among working pros. I only use a DL in one routine because the context allows for a Houdin get-ready, making it easy and effective.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts
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There are certainly magicians whose DL/DTs are quite indistinguishable from a single. But I think those familiar with the move are still signaled by the context and especially the result of the move: for example, a card instantly changes to another after being rubbed on the sleeve. So maybe we should be thinking more about how to break the connection between the move and its resultant effect; both through time misdirection and other stuff happening in between, as one might do with an early cups and balls final load, so that backtracking becomes too confusing for the audience.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Posted: Aug 23, 2018 04:17 pm 