Hey Guys,

Working on the Erdnase Second Deal First Method. I am having an issue pivoting the top card at the base of the thumb. It says in Revelation the left lower corner of the top card should bite into the base of the thumb and pivot there. In his video Jason England recommends pivoting here as well if it helps. I actually didn't find much on the grip and method of pushing off in Ortiz's Annotated Erdnase.

Well the problem is I cannot keep the corner locked there when I pull the card back , no matter what I try it seemed like the top card wants to migrate so its lower short edge faces out and I cannot seem to reposition it with just my thumb. I try and pinch it with my thumb muscles but this dosent feel right - I have the impression from my reading the top card should be wedged into that space by the thumb.

In the process I stumbled into a great knack for pushing off two from the long side (similar to the Second Method but just two cards pushed off almost on top of each other). In any case I want to get the Classic first method down just because...

Any suggestions on how to pivot the card on the base of the thumb? I am trying to attach an image to help clarify the issue I am having with the grip.

Thanks in advance for any pointers on this hangup.

EDIT: I wanted to add I am trying to pivot on the push off as well as the return. I suppose its possible for the return to be a light pull back where the lower corner no longer pivots in the base of the thenar muscle only to re-seat at the base of the thimb and pivot again on the next pushoff? I don't want to work this approach unless its possibly a solution and not a false lead / bad habit.

Click here to view attached image.

Seems you've got long fingers, as I have.

Maybe you should work on a grip like mine?

http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/en/code/do......=6000002

When you pull the top card back it should reposition itself back to being flush with the deck. When I do it, it's not anchoring off the base of the thumb the entire time - at the last 1/4th or so of the "push-off" process, the corner comes out of place but is kept under control by the thumb. When I'm pulling the top card back, the thumb pulls it back right where it came from using the first finger as a gauge. I'm not saying this is how it should be done, or how Erdnase would have done it or whatever, but it's how I do it and it looks fine. Still, a push-off from the side looks way better in my opinion.

I don't use this way of dealing often, but I know just what you're talking about. Erdnase does not talk about this so I must have picked up this tip somewere else. Credit where credit is due, if someone knows the originator.

What I believe you're doing with the left thumb is pushing down and left diagonally to pivot the card out, and then once you are dealing it, you take the thumb back up the same path. Instead of doing this, imagine your thumb doing a small circle (well, more of an oval, but you'll see when doing it), clockwise. The first part is when pushing the card out. Diagonally down and left is OK, but you can also think of it like the top right part of a circle. Once you're dealing the card with the right hand and are drawing back the thumb, continue the circle. The thumb goes left first instead of up, and the left side of the card aligns. Then the thumb finishes the circle by going back up to where it was, and the top of the card is now flush too.

You don't need to make a huge circle. The point is to not come back using the same path you used to come down. As you practice you can make the motion smaller and smaller until it looks almost the same as your thumb doing a straight line out and back in, but with the right feeling the card will not get out of control and will instead realign itself as needed.

AMcD: Thanks for the video! Nice looking deal BTW! I believe my problem may be a shorter thumb rather than longer fingers. My fingers seem rather average to short.
Thanks again for the tip!

Maitre D
: Thanks for the input. By any chance do you have a specific part of the thumb you use for this pushoff? Im still trying to get a feel for where it works for me.

splice: Great tip thanks! TYhat makes sense and I will try it today as I practice.
Its so flustering because Vernon says the knack should be acquired in a day at most. hah

Thanks again everyone!

I'm not really sure I'd recommend Vernon's theories on SD. I mean, he says such an amount of crap in the Revelations Series DVD (I'm talking about the SD) that I doubt strongly it's the best source...

HAHAH ok good to know! I haven't seen the whole Revelations series but I will keep that in mind!
Thanks Arnold!

Arnold: do you mind expanding on the points Vernon makes on the SD you disagre with? I'm just curious since I am about to watch the series again. After a few solid weeks of work on the SD I can say the least helpful source was Revelation book.

As for my progress so far here is a short note that may help future readers searching the forum. These are personal notes and may not apply to everyone's hands or experiences.

The biggest difficulty was getting the top card pivot especially when using the grip Erdnase recommends. I found the card wouldn't stay seated in my palm. I left EATCT and read the ECT passage on the Second Deal (pushoff). This grip does not have the index finger on the top of the deck. ECT also recommends squeezing the deck between the base of the thumb and the 3 and 4 fingers. This pressure helps me control the cards coming off the top and has made a huge difference.

I experimented with this and found the depth in my palm the deck needed to go as well as the angle of bevel to get the top card pivot action down. It was definitely a knack but taking off the index finger helped. Thsi way I was able to get this motion down then ease into a grip that is more natural for my style of dealing.

Now with the knack for the pivot it was a day or so of work to get the index finger back on top of the deck. With a feel for where the cards need to sit for the pivot to function in my hand this was much easier.

Another note regarding the ECT notes on the SD. I find it much much easier to follow the ECT instruction of letting the skin of the thumb catch two cards rather than jogging the top card down. This is a knack but not as difficult as you may expect. It also helps you maintain the top card pivot if you keep it flush to the top of the deck.

With the move down I am now trying to nail my consistency and timing. Darwin Ortiz has a good note in his Annotated Erdnase which is pulled from ECT as well, this time on the strike second deal timing but I am trying to apply it to the pushoff. I try to make sure the top card has been fully retracted before the second is half off the top....
that's it for now. I may post a video for critique when I feel like the deal is worth showing. Thanks for the help everyone. Please feel free to add comments or suggestions here as I am still working on this.

I've had the exact same problem when started the SD, Splice's advice solved the problem for me, thanks for that!

Yeah this feels a lot like what my thumb is doing now too.
That bit of advice is quite useful thank you again Splice!

All - thanks for the thread and input. I've just begun working on the strike SD and am experiencing the same issue with the card pivoting.

The lower left corner of the card pivoting against the base of the thumb is a good idea... I think it may be from ECT ... when I try to achieve that I find my thumb tip ends up too short of the far short edge of the deck and that looks fishy to me ...

so I ended up practicing to align the card back with the thumb alone... with a bit of help of the left index finger. but if I look down at the lower left corner it dances wildly below the base of the thumb... fortunately its hidden by my fat thumb base.

I became acquainted with the idea of moving the left finger in a circular(oval) fashion in the revelations series of videos ... but I think its applicable for the strike second deal alone. I think so because I remember (may be wrongly) that one needs to first push the card outwards ... with a push off sd ... that may be a tough thing to achieve.

while no detail is small enough ... I think if ur hands can't seem to anchor that lower left corner you can still learn a good sd.