Does this imply that security lets people get away with cheating when it isn't their money? I don't understand the implication here.

I though their job is to stop cheating. I am confused.

Posted: Jul 18, 2006 11:42pm
By the way I completly agree with your assesment that just because a camera catches a move does in NO way make it a bad one.

Moves are good in "context" in my opinion. I have seen many a move caught on camera and when I was at the table it got by me. So to be able to sit back and watch the "small box" of the TV screen is different than the "big picture" of life. This is only an opinion mind you.

I don’t mean to hint at it I mean to state quite clearly that he did make a mistake. The mistake was him thinking that move would fly and get passed the camera. He was wrong! He knew the camera was there didn’t he? Anyone can see that move will not beat a camera so what was doing using it in those circumstances? You put Filipino Freddie up as a good example but I think he is an excellent example of someone who made the wrong move at the wrong time. You imply it would have flew if not for the camera because no player said anything. Well that does not impress me because people will often not say anything at the table but they might mention their suspicion to the management. I don’t know but is that how Filipino Freddie ended up on camera? That shift from what I see is crap in my opinion. Apart from that I don’t see why there is need for it. Why did he not just get a partner to cut? He say it is usable under fire and maybe is under the right circumstances but have you ever used it in serious game? Guys respect what you say as I do but you will get guys shot if they follow that advice and try shift in game. The camera catches a lot of moves that are still usable under fire but you don’t need a camera to catch that one and when there is a camera forget about it and learn from the mistake that Filipino Freddie made. Guts and Skill but no Brains. Take my advice and do as you please. No offence intented but that's what I think about it.

Having more guts than brains is a dangerous combination.

Danny - As long as it's not their money, then they have no real economic incentive of stopping you from cheating. One exception would be if the other players at the table somehow get suspicious, and so the card room starts to lose business because of the cheating. I have no facts to back up my claim, I'm simply using logic.

Andrei

No way?!

Mr.Z instead of sarcasam how about an answer?

Oh and they have the incentive EVERY secruity personel has. Keeping their job. Also MANY of these folks take pride in their job. Yep still happens even in this day and age believe it or not.

Really ANY security is not losing "their" money. That was why the question.

I have a friend doing this move on my video "The Best of the Best" and I don't like it either. I'm not saying that it doesn't work and that it doesn't get the money but as for me doing this move to get the money...I don't think so. Call me a coward if you'd like but my life is too precious to execute a move so blatant like that in a game. I guess that's because of the magician side still in me...I just want my stuff to look right...hence my Infinity Pass.

Doc

I guess the question at hand is "could it be done in a game?"

I don't mean "theoretically" but actually done. I suppose any move could "thoretically" be done in the right circumstance.

But Doc seems to imply that it takes more "guts" if you will than most moves.

Maybe this is a stupid corelation, (go figure) but in magic many of the most bold, out in front of them moves, are the ones which you have greatest affect on people. They are the ones which if you have the nerve are easiest to get away with. You simply have to have the guts.

Is this the same with gambling moves? Does the gambling table have the equivilant of "Blackstones Ducks?". A HUGE blatant move right out there for anyone to look at who happens to be looking there.

Please don't take the question the wrong way. I am trying to find "context" here. Hard to capture "context" on video. I am wondering if the moves are better in "context" to a great extent. Not trying to argue. Matter of fact I have no position either way so arguing is not really possible.

Well what is the question?

As far as all of this pontification on the usability of table hops, I'd venture to say it's an antiquated move considering that all the major casino, card room, and big money private poker games use a center-dealer format. Pretty easy to beat the cut when the dealer cuts the deck himself.

FF's bold shift "got the money" back in the Gardena days when the players were allowed to pass the deck and deal themselves.

Ain't like that no mo.

The question was if security let things happen simply because it wasn't "their money".

It was posed in the post you quoted to be sarcastic. Sorry you missed it. It is the line you edited out in your quote.

Danny,

You ask, "Could it be done in a game?" To that I can only reply: "IT WAS DONE IN A GAME!!"

The guy was playing in a cardroom in Gardena, saw an opportunity to make some money, and went for it.

Tommy,
We don't have all the details of FF's move and its subsequent capturing on tape. Perhaps he didn't know the camera was there. Perhaps he knew but received "reassurances" from security that they wouldn't act on the tape. Perhaps the move was burned past the players AND security and then the move was discovered 6 months later (after he was in another state). I don't know, but as you pointed out, you don't either. If he had security looking the other way and the tape only surfaced years later, then my stance that his move was near-perfect for the situation and quality of players he was facing is dead-on, and your statement that he "quite clearly" made a mistake is flat-out wrong. You should at least consider the possibility before spewing-forth.

Secondly, I've never recommended that people adopt FF's shift. Be careful what you read into posts, I'm usually pretty precise in my postings. On the contrary, I don't think it's a particularly strong move in most cirumstances/games. I'm only stating a fact: it got the money. That's what's important to a guy like FF.

Doc,
Of course you're correct that the move is a scary one. I don't know that I have the guts to attempt that move. But as you well know, the only thing that matters is the right tool for the right time. Lots of sub-par moves will fly in soft company. I put FF up as an example of a guy using his brain (in the moment) over using his "hands." His was a move of psychology and subtlety, not technical prowess.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that this move didn't get caught on tape last month or last year. It was filmed many years ago. Things were a little different back then. For one, cardrooms weren't exactly known for vigorously pursuing cheating in all its forms as long as it didn't undermine their profits. Many hustlers were given "warning" to stop moving or they'd be asked to leave.

Obviously the advent of the center dealer format in cardrooms has eliminated most of the opportunities for FF's move in formal venues. But that doesn't mean that the move (or a variant) is completely obsolete in private games. It just takes the right combination of place, opportunity, desire, guts, and psychology.

Jason

Cool Jason it was exactly what I was looking for thanks.

What about security? Do they not care just because it isn't their money?

Well, I don't think the world is quite that black and white. Of course some security people have taken that stance. It was probably more prevalent in decades past than it is now. But I imagine there are still remnants of that philosophy in some properties.

However, I don't think it's a cut-and-dried situation that people in security "don't care" just because it isn't their money.

Jason

I was only asking because you said this. It makes it seem pretty black and white.
Personally I know of a large number of security personel who take the job seriously and have pride in what it is they do. They would never knowingly let anyone get away with cheating.

I was just trying to clarify so thank you very much.

Jason

The bottom line is I would not use it under normal circumstances and neither would you by the sound of it.

I think the only way I would use it is if I we were taking one sucker at the table and the other players where in on the move and the surveillance were paid to look the other way and on the understanding that the film would not be shown until after I was dead. Then I could laugh at the thought of guys later saying things like:

“His move was a nearly perfect display of guts and skill considering none of his fellow players knew what was going on.”

:) Only kidding. Your quite right "he" might not have made a mistake.

To the readers of this thread...to be honest with you 99% of the moves that you see on these gambling protection videos will get the money at any given time, all you have to do is have the nerve to do it. Let's look at FF's position...maybe this hop is all he knew or the one that he liked the best; all we know for sure is that he used it and got the money while doing it. To us hustlers as I keep saying is..."Does the move get the money" that's all we care about. To you magicians you want to see a perfect pretty move which to me would honestly be better but that doesn't matter with us.

I've seen hustlers swing a hand out of the deck and leave his hand flat on the table with the cards palmed, I would never leave my hand lying flat on a table like that but this is how they were taught to do it and it has worked for them for many a years so if FF does a blatant pass and gets over, who are we to frown our nose up against his handling? He won the money didn't he....so it worked.

Respectfully

Doc

There are far more things to enter into the equation than does the move get the money.

If that’s what it’s all about, then just pull out a gun and do a stick-up at the game. That’s the most effective move in the book.

Oh please.

But it's not really "hustling" at that point now is it?

Penalties for gun play are far more servere from the law anyhow. PLUS somene may actually shoot back! That would just flat rattle me.

Nahhh.. they pull out the gun to use it for a shinner

Knives work well too