Hello all,
If you watch a magician do a trick and figure out how it is done, is it stealing if you perform it? I am talking about some classic card tricks by well known card magicians.

your thoughts

Edh

You can only "steal" it, if you try to sell it. I "steal" all the time then.

I think it's unethical, but I don't know if you could apply the term, "stealing" to it. I would never do it, that's for sure...

Edh, it's very good that you are thinking about this issue enough to ask about it. Most magicians would just go out, do the trick and not worry about it.

This type of question typically draws a huge amount of discussion. Some folks have simple answers that show a lack of thought and others have theories that show they put large amount of thought into trying to rationalize taking the product of someone else's work and passing it off as their own. Because our work involves secrets it can be tough to establish who originated an idea. A lot of magicians these days publish earlier than they would like to specifically for this reason. They don't want other magicians doing their routines but they figure if they publish before the trick gets copied they will at least get credit for it. Mike Close specifically mentions this as the impetus for his workers series. Some of his ideas that he had shared in confidence, including the origami frog, had been released by another magician so he had to publish before other original ideas were released by unoriginal magicians.

If you buy a DVD or a book you have purchased the right to perform those routines. Sometimes, the magician doesn't have the "right" to sell that routine because he is selling something that was shown to him in confidence with the request that he keep it to himself. I put "right" in quotes because this is really an ethical issue not a legal issue. You have the right to do whatever you want with information no matter how you obtained it but you ought to respect the creator's wishes. Look at all the arguments going on about Kenner's 3 fly for some interesting arguments that go both ways. Kenner was shown a routine and taught it by the creator. Rather than allow the creator to publish when and how he wanted to Kenner put his version, which bears considerable resemblence to the original (I've read both), in his book. The standard under which the New York coin guys shared ideas was this: if you were shown something that was unpublished you could use it for laymen only. You were supposed to guard from exposure within the magic community until the creator published, allowing him to get full credit for his work.

When it comes what you're talking about, classic card tricks by well known magicians, you could just perform the routine verbatim. To be absolutely sure you're not stealing you should research the routine to find out what the performer added that is theirs. Every performer should personalize a routine when they perform it. Sometimes they change the sleights involved and sometimes they leave the choreography of sleights alone but weave a very personalized and special presentation around the trick. If you didn't attend a lecture or buy their book or at least, get their permission to perform it you should leave it alone. In comedy, people are very touchy about stealing material but in magic it's almost accepted. The problem with taking someone else's material, whether it's a gag or a line or an entire routine, is that you are now open to having your creations stolen. What I mean by that is that you can hardly complain about someone else doing the one routine you've put your heart and soul into if the rest of your act consists of other people's lines and tricks that you are performing without permission. They will recognize plagiarism and assume the entire act is open for the taking.

It's late and I'm tired so I'm going to try to be concise. If you see someone else do a routine don't just copy them. You can do it but most people would assume it's wrong. Also, you set yourself to have people steal from you because they will know you steal from others so they assume all your material is stolen and it becomes fair game.

First, you ought to ask. Many magicians will readily admit when they are doing a classic routine and tell you where it's published and they might even give you handling tips. If you can't ask you ought to research and find what is available to you. When you see a has been published you will know who the creator is and you wil know that you can perform it. You will probably also learn some subtleties from the instructions that you might have missed by just copying another performer.

When doing this routine you shouldn't use lines or presentations that performer uses. If he's done his homework on the routine but it's a classic effect then chances are good that the presentation and patter are original. On the other hand, if he's just saying what he's doing, "now I rub the card and it turns into your card but now the back is blue" or "I have a copper coin but now it's silver, now a wave of my hand and it becomes copper", then he hasn't done his homework and you can copy the presentation all you want but I don't think you should.

It's tough when you see someone perform a good trick and it seems so much better than those tricks that you read about in the books to not run out and copy him. What makes the trick great is the work each performer puts into those routines and their routine is the product of that work. When you take that, you steal from them. Just because I and a lot of other people would say it's wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Many big names in the magic community have taken credit for things that aren't theirs. Some by mistake and some by outright lying. Everyone has to figure out where they stand and if it's worth not doing that great trick you saw just so you can know, with absolute certainty, that you are in the clear.

I hope this is clear and it helps you come up with the answer that fits your personal code of ethics.

Dave

No, if someone performs something, it does not give you permission to copy their work whether or not you can figure it out. The right thing to do is to ask permission from whomever has inspired your to pursue that trick. Most times, they will point you in the right direction, the best published source if it is indeed published. If it is original to them, and they ask you to leave it alone, you must respect their wishes.

If it's an original effect, or even his handling and he hasn't put it in print or taught in lecture, etc. then it would be unethical to figure it out and perform it.

It is only unethical is it is an original effect/performance, and you copy it step for step/word for word. Let me give you an example of something which I believe is OK.

David Blaine does a trick on T.V. where he give a card to a spectator, shows them a second card, and has both switch places. I see this, figure out how it works, change the routine using TWO spectators, and I give it my own patter. This is ok because all that is being used is a simple DL and it's not his original routine.

What's NOT ok. You see Jay Sankey perform live at a show. You figure out his routine, then show other people HIS ORIGINAL material, using HIS ORIGINAL patter without his consent.

Yes.

Does going to a concert give you the right to tour with your own band and play someone else's songs?

Does looking at a painting give you the right to paint the exact same thing and sell it in your own art gallery?

Does reading a good book give you the right to publish your own paperback novel that is really the same?

Does watching a comedian give you the right to perform their material in comedy clubs and on television?

No, it does not give you the right.

On another note, where do you think all the rip-off's in magic come from? From people that have never seen the original effect?

In order to rip off/steal someone's effect, you do have to see it performed first. The mere fact that we have rip-offs should tell you that it is not right to steal a person's effect after watching it.

-Daegs
PS Two things on original material and "changing" it.

1. If a person's effect is not original, it does not give you the right to copy it. If that effect can be found on the market place, then you must purchase the book/video/magazine/effect before you can go perform it.

2. Changing the patter and slight parts of the effect **DOES NOT** give you the right to perform it either. If you are working off of an effect that is currently on the market, you must goto the inventor for *PERMISSION* before you perform / publish work on it.

Just changing something is not enough. If you were inspired by an effect(you wouldn't have come up with it without seeing the original effect) then you are ethically obligated to get permission from the orignal creator before performing/teaching/publishing any derived works.


It's a difficult high road, can you walk it?

When I see material I like, I ask myself why do I want to do someone else's material? I ask because my experience in doing other's material exactly as they do it, my results would often be unsatisfying.

1. I do my best to establish a line of communication with the magician who's work I admire. I ask them how they feel about sharing the material. I go from there. Sometimes they haven't minded at all, sometimes they have a lot. Most of them say...

2. Do even better to make all your material your own, or your own contribution. Work with the material, adjust it, personalize it, add to it, subtract from it...adjust the presentation, find a new or better way.

It's more satisfying.

I have the same problem. For example, I figure out "2 card monte" at David Blaine video. I use the same step and same word for this trick.

I think I stole this trick. Am I steal the trick?

But sometime I was used their idea but use different sleights and word for the trick. Effect is same. Is it stole the trick too?

I have to completely agree with Daegs on this. Even if you see someone perform an un-original routine and figure it out, change the patter, etc... that does not make it O.K. , IMO... I just think it is unethical to perform something that someone else is performing if you have not bought the performance rights to it, or asked their permission to use it. I know it drives me nuts when I see local magicians here doing effects, and I know they got them from watching me, and "working backwards" through the effect, etc. to come up with an almost identical effect...it's just annoying. But, in the end, I can relax and say, "There is more to the world than just card tricks"...

dmdk: For your own information(you'll sound smart when you tell this to your magic buddies), the trick that blaine does and calls "two card monte" is actually a card trick from Eddie Fetcher called "Be Honest, Which is it?" without the killer ending.

Unless you bought Fetcher's book, in my own opinion you shouldn't be performing it.

I understand that a lot of people(ellusionist for example) not only lie about the name(they do know what it is really called), but they don't credit Fetcher and continue to sell his effects.

While it doesn't sound like you have bought any rip-offs, I just wanted to say as soon as you find out that this "two card monte" is actually Fetcher's trick, I don't think you should, in good conscience, continue perfoming it without buying Fetcher's excellent book, which has a lot more similer eye-popping magic in it.



Yes, I believe it is. If you came up with a truly original effect and worked hard on perfecting it, and then someone watches you perform it, changes a top change to a double lift and has sleightly different patter, and then you found out they were performing *your* effect, would you consider that stealing?

Being ethical is *NOT EASY*.

You will see many great magicians perform amazing orignal card tricks, that you will be unable to perform because it isn't published. You'll also see some many cool effects, but be unwilling to plunk down the couple hundred dollars for it.

That is just the way of the world, it isn't easy.

You should know in your heart what is right and what is wrong, put yourself into the creators shoes, and ask yourself how you would feel if people kept stealing your material.

Good Luck!

There is so much great stuff it books already,why bother using someone elses stuff.

Better still, create your own stuff.That is very rewarding.

Its a great feeling showing something you created that knowone else is doing!

Daegs
After I see your message, I think I am going to wrong way. I need to think how to do in the future.

Why I used different sleight to perform the same effect?

Actually, I was thinking this question a long time. If the same effect but different sleight is steal the trick. But everyone have their own version of ambitious card. Mr. Daryl was using his own version to win the FISM. He stole the trick??? It is not his creation??? I don¡¦t think steal trick or not own creation can win FISM.

For now, I understood. Mr. Daryl was bought the product to authorize his routine and he combine different source to create it. I will buy their product first.

Thank you very much for you advice


Posted: Oct 4, 2004 5:22am
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Daegs

Tell you something you may not believe. I know the original of ¡§2 card Monte¡¨ is call "Be Honest, Which is it?¡¨. I find in other forum for a while.
But I don¡¦t know the creator and how the effect is.

I do not understand this fuss here at all. It is not stealing, in my opinion.

In that case, you couldn`t do 99 % of your tricks.

If you see somebody use a top palm or do a double lift, then it is not his invention or so.

If you are good enough to figure out, then why not use it? It is only considered stealing, if you sell this trick, claiming you invented it.

But what was described in the initial question, is something that happens all the time. Everywhere.

If Mercedes has a new invention, BMW has it the next month and so do all other manufacturers.

Stealing is stealing if you steal everything, but not just some general routines.

By the way, claiming that you guys ask for permission, is ridiculous. I don`t believe this at all. Sounds very hypocritical.

Moreover, here is a good example to make my point clear. If you are a composer and hear a good melody or a good arrangement, and you want to do something completely different, but you liked the violin section of the composition you heard, do you then say "well I cannot use violins for my composition and have to ask for permission"?????

Enough said!

Of course it is stealing -- why not just buy books or DVDs and perform any of the MILLIONS of published tricks and have some kind of integrity ? It is NOT really that difficult at all to do the right thing, it is just (a TINY bit) more expensive.

It all comes down to people being too cheap.

If you want to learn anything properly it takes investment, and honestly, magic can be the most affordable hobby there is -- Take 5 half dollars, maybe an english penny, a deck of cards or two, add a couple gaffs and utility props, Bobo's, Royal Road, Wilson's course and let's say 5 good videos/DVDs and you can be set for a LONG time.

How much would that cost ? Definitely not a lot, and after you absorb all that material, you should be competent enough to work out your OWN presentations and handlings and not HAVE to steal.

Maybe it's just me...and it probably is...but haven't we been through this same old tired debate more times than anyone should be forced to count?

Marco's point is extremely well taken. I fully expect to see all of you performing Fechter's "Be Honest What is It?" next time, fully crediting him (pp. 10-14) as written by Jerry Mentzer (c) 1974, before you begin the effect for your audience. You, of course, being the painfully honest and ethical magician that you are, will mention that your switch is just a little different than the one pictured in illustration #3 (developed by Commugraphics Enterprises), adding that you would never think of doing the effect exactly as written up without fully crediting and obtaining permission well in advance, because that would be stealing.

And when your audience wakes up from your soliloquy, they no doubt will appreciate your scholarly efforts. They won't be entertained, but they'll know that you do not rip off effects.

I forgot: how many angels did we say could fit on the head of a pin?

Good grief.

This posted scenario isn't about a specific sleight it is about stealing a routine you saw.


Because anyone can figure out a magic trick if they hit the rewind button enough times, that takes no talent at all.


Yes and that sucks.

If I DID want to perform a piece that is unpublished and unreleased (which I don't), I am going to go to the source and see how they feel about it -- its not a difficult thing to do and it is simply a matter of respect. The only reason I can think of why someone wouldnt do that is simply a lack of courtesy or maybe because they are afraid that the performer might say "Please don't steal my work."


This is a ridiculous comparison, the compostion is the notes and the actual music being played not the instruments being used; a trick is a combination of presentation, sleight and effect, when you take these, you are stealing, plain and simple.

With violin section the music is meant of course, what did you think??? Anyone here should be able to understand this, if they read correctly. So my comparison is not ridiculous at all.

It is funny to imagine you trying to contact Daryl and Jay Sankey and David Blaine and Jeff McBride asking them to use some of their moves. Do you really want us to believe this?

By the way, all the great magic moves of the past, when there were no DVDs or whatsoever, have been brought to us by performers, who saw those and refined them. None of these asked for permission.

You can cut through a lot of the analytical BS this way:

If you're not sure if it's stealing or not, don't do it.




That's not true.