If we take the position that it is wrong to represent Camera Trickery and Stooging as Magic on TV, is it ok then to reveal it when you're asked how Criss Angel/David Blaine/Cyril Takayama/David Copperfield achieve those "miracles"?

Camera Tricks ok?

Stooges ok? (TV Stooging ala Criss Angel...)

Your thoughts and opinions...

It may be OK but it doesn't help your image IMHO.

On the contrary, if you then do some good effects that uses neither, it does great for your image.

From my experience.

I was leaning towards the talking bad about the other guy angle. Maybe not sour grapes but in that zip code.

Imho, it is NOT talking bad about the other guy. It is just stating it as it is.

I think the two can be the same; talking bad and stating the facts.

It can.

I just don't feel that that is the case here.

I find this interesting. How not the case here?

Well to me at least, it seems like this is a "given", a weird "standard operating procedure" of TV Magic. So much so that some Magicians argue that it MUST be done that way or TV Magic will not be entertaining or mystifying.

So, by that logic, I am just telling people what seems to be this strange modus operandi. That if you do TV Magic, you have to use Camera Tricks and/or Stooges because the Big Names all do that. For the record, I don't agree with this assumption. However, I seem to be in the minority. Well, so be it.

I am not putting them down really, I'm just saying it's not Magic what they're doing if they're doing this, at least not by my definition. Not that it will lessen their fame or stop them using it BUT I won't be using it.

Well, that is how I see it anyway...

There isn't any reason to say anything about other's methods - if anything, just say he's good at what he does. Some women wear falsies, wigs, spray tans, etc. Does a naturally beautiful woman have to point those things out in others to look more beautiful herself? I don't think so. Do good magic and get a life, no need to say so-and-so does it like this but I don't. It serves no purpose to tear someone else down - that's usually more succesful than you - to try to make yourself look better. Whatever benefit you think you get from doing this, inside everyone else thinks of your comments as petty jealousy.

Certainly people can think whatever they want, regardless, they will... Think of me however you want.

That does not mean I should say that someone is pretty good at doing Magic when they're NOT good at doing Magic. Or even doing Magic at all sometimes.

Comparing it to beautiful women is strange really, and women do talk about each other a lot... But, I won't go there.

It's more like this, Sylvester Stallone claiming that he really is the World Boxing Champion because he did the Rocky Movies. He would be laughed out loud...

Is he a successful Actor making lots of money? Sure.

Is Criss Angel and David Blaine making a lot of money? Sure.

Are they really doing Magic? Well now, that's a matter of debate.

To me, camera tricks and stooges don't count.

And I'll tell people if asked.

I'm on board with, "To me, camera tricks and stooges don't count."
I hate to say it due to a lifelong problem with the idea but I think this is a case where perception is reality. Pakar & I have the same view on camera tricks and stooges. The people we would make these comments to more than likely have no opinion on the matter though. The finer points mean squat to them. Stating the facts can look, feel, and smell like the aforementioned grapes.
I do not think it's a case of tearing down to boost one up. In my experience these questions arise in the form of, "What do you think of ___________" and they are clearly excited about _______________, or "Can you do what ___________ does?", again clearly excited about ___________. To not sound bad grapey, yes he just wrote bad grapey, I state it's not the type of magic I perform, as it's not. To reveal the method, any method, is in my opinion bad form for me. I do understand Pakar's logic, he is calling them as he sees them honestly, and that is admirable.

Thanks for seeing my point of view even if you don't totally agree with me, HerbLarry.

That it tears Magicians into so many "camps" is what is so sad also...

That many Magicians feel that they HAVE to use camera tricks and stooges on TV Shows is really hurting Magic on the whole.

We should speak up against it imho before it takes all of us down.

I'm not defending Blaine, Angel, or camera trickery, but when it comes to exposure, philosophically, either you condone exposure or you don't. If it makes you feel superior to split hairs and decide to shatter the wonder spread by others who do mysteries you can't, whatever the method, be my guest. I'm curious... Do you say which Blaine or Angel tricks, in your opinion, use camera tricks and which don't? Or do you just dismiss all their work?

Either I condone exposure or I don't?

A bit "absolute" aren't we?

Well that is your opinion.

However... Exposing Camera Tricks and TV Stooging BEING PASSED OF AS MAGIC is not exposure in the Magic sense to me...

And I don't dismiss all their work.

The very fact that they have real, sometimes even, good work, is the confounding part...

Why don't they just stand on that?

Puzzling.

I don't think a magician should say anything negative about another magician to a lay person, ever.
What does it achieve accept giving a negative view of magic. Certainly nothing positive. I honestly believe that we should show a united front to lay people. Even if I really can't stand a magician, I'm not going to say anything negative about them. Talking with other magicians, then yes it's fine and even fun to talk about stuff like that but to lay people, no.

Sean

Again, I am not attacking them personally.

I am sure they're nice guys.

But if it is not Magic, I'll just say that...

It does not make them bad people doing that, just people with a different sense of what constitutes Magic performance.

Much like Singers who say it is okay to lip synch in supposedly live performances...

Not agreeing with their ways is them is not hating them imo...

The hatin' criteria has changed over the years. Makes no sense but it did.

I go by my own criteria when it comes to hatin'...