While on a Cruise with my family last month I noticed an activity titled, “Magic Seminar.” It turned out to be an expose on coveted magic secrets such as the Professor’s Nightmare, Keller Rope Tie, a card trick using the key card principal and some other prized secrets that I cannot recall. (Must have been the Rum Runners I had.)

There was no admission for this event, no magician’s ID required and no magician’s pledge taken. In other words, this was a magician's lecture for every Tom, Dick and Harry who happened to stroll in. No offense to Tom, Dick and Harry.

Later that week, while my family was dining, the same magician came to our table and entertained us with table magic. The magician was personable, skillful and first class. We thoroughly enjoyed his performance.

Remember Val Valentino before he put on his mask? He had a very skillful, entertaining and first class act.

So, why do these magicians who have talent and personality, and seemingly have everything going for them, feel the need to dishonor everyone else in their profession by engaging in this unethical behavior?

Did you ask the magician?

No, I was on vacation and in a non-confrontational mood. That and the previously mentioned Rum Runners.

I would have likely done the same, Ken. I join your vexation- what are they thinking? I mean, if Venice were flooding, I would sell what I could, but not the boats!

Not just puzzling, but sad. Sad in the same way people are reduced to selling their bodies. But as in the lyrics for Lying Eyes, do these magicians get tired, or do they just get lazy?

Ken, how was the item offered? And can you get back to the company and from there to the magician and ask them about the course and feelings about teaching that way?

I'd rather open a dialog.

I would love to know who this was?

^He had a name tag on and the country he was from, as did all of the Carnival Staff. I cannot remember the name but I think he was from India.

Jonathan,
As best as I can remember it was simply offered as a 'Magic Seminar' on the list of activities they have everyday.

The answer to your question is simple. Money.

Where is the line? Selling the trick after your show, is selling the secret. If he is being paid to tell the secrets, it is still monetary in nature right? If you sell the tricks to the same number of people who attend the seminar and are paid the same for the seminar, are you wrong for doing so? ANYONE can purchase the tricks right? This is a tough line to try to take without thinking about it some.

I agree with the above. While it is disturbing to expose secrets, If you were offered a million to expose magic on TV, would you take it? I'm always agog at (most) people who say NO to this question.

HH

And you would feel better if they guy taught rapport skills, how to listen for shifts, how to anchor and how to install a belief or voice?

Would you have been upset if the class were well taught and offered simple tricks which empowered the attendees to entertain their friends with some magic amusements? What about the numerous magic camps that operate throughout the country? As far as I know, any kid can show up at an sym meeting and learn magic. Is that an issue?


So perhaps, the issue isn't with teaching per se, but with the (lack of) experience and knowledge of the teacher and how that impacted the effectiveness and appropriateness of his class.
Would you lambast a magic on the forum who gave an inept performance? How is that different from lambasting a magician who is inept at teaching magic? Isn't that kind of lambastation frowned upon by the ethics code you sign when joining national groups?

And 'magicians pledge'? Really?!?

Do they send you that before or after the secret decoder ring? Perhaps I missed it when buying any one of the easy to master dvds, or the floating card from houdini's, or any other item that any other dealer had been thrilled to mail to me just for sending in an order.

Let's face it, the only 'membership' card one needs to have access to every secret you can dream of has 16 numbers, an expiration date, and now a security code. Ask your bank. They'll be happy to mail you one.

I fail to see a difference here. The guy was a poor teacher and on that grounds perhaps this is offensive. But it is no different than as Bruce said a Magic Camp or as I say selling tricks after the show to anyone who wants them. It is easy to get all lathered up about it, but the fact is that this is not that big a dealio.

Danny,

Just to be clear, I agree with you.

It was just in reading ken's post that I had the realization that the issue isn't teaching magic to non-magicians (because that argument always breaks down) but with what and how it is taught.

Jack Goldfinger said something very wise to me - he said there is no value in talking about good or bad magicians, only skilled and unskilled ones.

Very smart.

There are also skilled and unskilled teachers.

If a math teacher tries to teach algebra to kids who can't multiply, they are unskilled. If a math teacher cannot communicate how to do something in a manner that allows the student to acquire that skill yet merely demonstrates obtuse sounding steps, that teacher is unskilled.

We don't rail against the teaching of math because some people can't teach it well.

And no one would deny that teaching math is a good thing.

Yet, when it comes to our precious secrets panties tighten into wads - which is ironic because every single wadded panty is being worn by someone who clearly has enjoyed having had the opportunity to learn magic and whose lives are richer because of it.

Are they suggesting we deny others that opportunity?

Well, not if they are members of the ibm or sam they aren't. Magic outreach is an essential part of each organization's mission and many clubs recruit new members in order to survive.

No, the issue isn't (unless someone is a jealous hypocrite - which may be the case with some who rail against teaching - in another thread) that magic is taught, the issue is in how it is taught - and that becomes an issue of skilled and unskilled teaching.

But should the fact that most magic teachers are unskilled suprise us? Go to a magic convention and grab any 10 people at random and ask to see a trick - how many can do one start to finish competantly, deceptively, entertaingly and professionally?

To truly teach requires a depth of understanding beyond just 'doing it.'. Most magicians can't even 'do it' so why should we expect most magic teachers to be able to teach well?

The problem isn't that people have the chance to learn about magic, enrich their lives, and potentially develop an appreciation for our art - the problem is when people do not know how to convey that.

First of all, you are correct to point out that my post had nothing about the skill of the teacher. I don’t think I ‘lambasted’ this magician. In fact, I went out of my way to make the point that while entertaining my family he was personal and seemed like a first class entertainer. I simply pointed out that he clearly broke a promise that, unless you live under a rock, all magicians make before they learn the secrets of magic. That is wrong and clearly unethical.

Please consider the words of Harlan Tarbell:

“In your training as a magician the inner secrets of the magician are intrusted to your care. You owe it to your brother as well as yourself to protect the profession.”

Now please consider these words in trying to explain where I draw the line:

Magician’s secrets should only be exposed to students that are willing to make and INVESTMENT (money) and a COMMITMENT (magician’s pledge). Both would be ideal, but I guess I’ll settle for one.

Lets look at a couple teaching situations, some that were just brought up:

SYM and other magic clubs—Members must pay fee and take the magician’s pledge (commitment)
Purchases on line or at a magic shop—Obviously requires an investment.
Back of Room sales-Requires an investment.
Magic Camps—There is a fee and I would hope most camps teach the magician’s pledge.
Magician’s Lecture—There is always a fee.
Being taught by and mentor—What mentor wouldn’t acknowledge and teach the words of Harlan Tarbell?

Now, lets compare that to these teaching situations:

You Tube exposure with no sign up requirement or fee.
TV exposure like the Masked Magician.
Cruise ship exposure like the one I have described above.

In each of these examples, anyone can be shown the secrets of magic with no investment and can be stumbled upon by accident. The ‘student’ may not even have the slightest interest in magic. And of course, there is no mention of how important it is to the brotherhood of magicians to keep it secret.

I know we will never stop gratuitous exposure of magicians secrets, but we can still stand up for what is right.

What promise? No one made me promise anything when I bought the latest dvd from the magic shop! Did they make you promise anything before they charged your card? I don't see any online dealers making anyone pledge anything before their orders ship.

According to your position, ken, money makes it all ok. If someone pays for the secret, they are entitled to it - is that really the position you want to advocate?

And, as danny pointed out, the people who paid for a ticket on the cruise are indeed paying for the class, even if not all of them choose to avail themselves thereof. And some of them signed up ie sought it out.

So, according to your logic, there is no problem.

Two things, first - harlan tarbell made money selling a mail order kit to anyone who would pay for the lessons. Is that really protecting our secrets? Is money the only thing that makes something 'not exposure'? By your logic, if someone paid me to come to their house and deconstruct the tricks they saw on tv and in vegas that would be ok - after all, they sought me out and paid me for the information, right?

And two, you did not lambast the performer (we have had 'brotherhood' washed into our brains too deeply for people to do that, even when its deserved) but you did lambast the teacher - even if they are the same person. You chose to give his class a negative review on a public forum. You call it exposure. I would call it inept teaching.

People paid for his class as part of their ticket price, they signed up for it and made time to attend in lieu of other activities - how is that different from a magic camp, sym meeting, or even buying a dvd with the greatest easy to master tricks already cherry picked for you from any number of eager websites?

And the beat goes on...

Yep - people regularly support and engage in exposure every time they place an order at their magic shop or post a tip online, yet get upset when others try to encourage an appreciation of magic as an art through educational outreach programs

But I guess, if you have money, then you can do and have anything you want.

Kind of sickening, isn't it?

First of all, only 1% of the population ‘has money,’ the other 99% ‘earn money.’ And if people decide to use the money they have earned to pay for a secret to a magic trick, then in my opinion, they have shown enough interest in the art to be given that privilege.

I don’t buy your logic about the people on the cruise ship buying the magic seminar just because they bought a ticket for the cruise. How many of those people bought the ticket for the cruise because they wanted to attend a magic seminar? How many people have cable installed so they can watch the masked magician? The answer to both questions is none of them.

The coveted secrets of magic are being exposed by happenchance, by flipping the remote control, walking by a room, or googleing something with the word ‘secret’ in it. They have shown no real interest in the art, they just want the goodies and they are getting them free with no investment and no commitment.

I think I understand what you’re trying to say, but I see a clear difference between paying for something and getting it for free. It’s human nature not to appreciate what we get for free, and yet if we buy something we take care of it, value it, and protect it.

Ken what is the difference? You have pointed to a distinction without a difference.

They paid and as part of what they paid for a "magic seminar" is part of the deal. (By the way Tarbell was the single largest "exposer" of magic in history!)

You have broken it down to some sort of "intent" on the part of the purchaser. Really? Who is the judge of that "intent"? You? How many people walk into magic shops every day, or worse yet now on the internet just browse our "secrets" and have any intent to be magicians? Answer, VERY FEW!

If you are going to take this stance the only thing I ask is you think it all the way through, and take it all the way. You seem to want to pick and choose your outrage here.

Perhaps I see it wrong, but I thought the difference was one paid for the cruise, and the magic was, at best, incidental, maybe even not advertised, and was "free (no extra charge)" once aboard.

Scenario #1: One pays to enter a fair, and once inside finds someone teaching magic (exposing) to passersby for free.

Scenario #2: One pays to enter a fair, and once inside finds a tent advertising "Learn Magic - $5.00".

I will allow it is not much of a line, but it is better than none at all...

Jim