This is just a thought starter, and I would love to hear opinions. For the record, I am a Christian. I have done Gospel Magic Shows at churches, etc., so I am not flaming Christian performers, just asking the question. It seems to me that if I took a marketed effect and changed it to use different props or different cards, I would be blasted for stealing an idea. But I see several marketed effects by Gospel Magic companies that are a direct rip-off of original ideas from other people, and because they are now a gospel theme it seems to go unnoticed. Maybe all these companies have contacted the original dealer and asked for permission, I don't know. What do you think?

You must ask permission whenever possible. I think you must go the extra two miles.

I get the feeling you are asking us to help you look for splinters in our neighbor's eyes.

If you have specific questions, it might be simpler to ask the parties involved.

No, No... I don't have anything or anyone specific I'm talking about. It was just an observation that hit me the other day while surfing the web. I was just wondering if anyone had the same observation. Maybe I'm way off base. If so, sorry...

Gospel Magic? Sorry, but I have not heard of it.

Hi Magic Ref:

I've never seen such an example. If you have, it's probably better to give them the benefit-of-doubt, unless you know. The Gospel Company may have received permission. Or, maybe they were the ones to first come up with it.

Sincerely,

Ron

Stealing is stealing. Most of the modified Gospel tricks I've seen actually belong to the public domain genre, but I'm sure there has been cases of more recent effects that belong to someone being modified for gospel, then marketed. People who want to make a fast buck will do stuff like that, regardless of the domain in which they sell it. I get stuff in the mail and phone solicitations for all kinds of stuff that has been remarked for "religion" and is probably copyrighted with patent violations. If there hasn't been many attempts to stop them, it may simply be that the gospel market is a much smaller market than general magic and the originators simply don't think there is enough there to be worth the time and money to go after them.

I have to say this. There are alleged "Christian magicians" in our town working. Funny thing is, we go see one who, as it works out, is using lines and bits from other peoples acts.

I know he didn't have permission, as some of the lines came directly from my act.

I guess "Thou shalt not steal" does not apply to crappy magicians who can't think of their own things.

The ironic part is, then I have to listen to how he let Jesus into his life and it became an endless hope and yada-yada-yada. Funny, though, an intentional ongoing process of theft was happening, so how much do I believe him?

It is very disappointing.

It is strange that the "Gospel" version of 3 Card Monte is available!

Gee, I'll hold off releasing 20th Century Hair Shirt if that's the attitude!

Destiny

OK... I really don't want to bash Christians.... Like I said, I'm one myself and proud of it. It was just an observation. I think Photius is probably right, that the market is so small it goes under the radar. Also, Ron is exactly right, that if I ever do think this is happening, the benefit of the doubt always needs to be on the good side and I should assume they have permission. If it really matters to me, I guess when I see it, I should contact the parties involved and see if either of them care.

Like I said, I was just wondering if it was known to be a rampant practice or not. Doesn't seem to be. Thanks, all...I consider this (maybe dumb) thought starter closed.

You mean like, "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. You see, I perform gospel magic with tricks that I have stolen from other performers without permission."
"My son, you are not a thief, but a hypocrite. If you put on a show at the orphanage, God will forgive you."

Christian or not, they're still human and many humans take the easy path, and thus think nothing of taking what they need or want from someone else's act. Some don't even understand what they are doing is wrong. Besides, if they don't sin, they have nothing to repent for.

I think I need to clarify something in this discussion. There are really two different questions being asked:

(1) If one were to purchase a marketed effect and alter the props, patter, or overall theme to be Gospel, is it considered stealing?

My Answer: I wouldn't consider it stealing as long as you give credit where credit is due. Do you know how many effects I have purchased where I like the illusion but not the patter or structure of the routine? Quite a few! So, I alter the patter or routine to fit my style. One example would be Hoodwinkings by Mick Ayres. I recently bought his routine (highly recommended, by the way) and put my own ideas where I wanted them. I changed it to fit my style, but the important thing is that I make it clear that the routine is based on Mick Ayre's Hoodwinkings (giving credit where credit is due). This is no different than changing an effect or routine to fit a Gospel style, IMO. Just make sure you are giving credit to the right people.


(2) Are Gospel magic companies stealing ideas from already marketed effects and releasing them with a Gospel theme, or are they getting permission from the original creators?

My Answer: I have no answer to this. There would be much research involved and, frankly, I don't care enough to do that research. But, for legal reasons, I sure hope they have permission!

-Ryan-

Not unless they market an original effect without permission. Originality is good.


Chances are, the effects are not proprietary or new and are considered public domain. Anybody can make a set of linking rings and sell them. The script, if under copyright, is off limits.

The problem with this sort of thread is everyone gets tarred with the same brush.

I have bought from both Locke Family Magic and Dazzling Magic, and I regard both as very ethical and a pleasure to do business with. Duane Laflin is the only Gospel magician whose DVDs I own. He never hesitates on those DVDs to give credit wherever and whenever it is due.

We all know that Christians can do wrong - they are people.

But they can also do right, and the question in this thread needs to be more specific or based on substantive evidence.

To the casual reader, it calls into question the ethics of decent people for no good reason.

Destiny

As usual, Destiny does provide some perspective.

Not all Gospel magicians are doing anything at all wrong.

As a matter of fact, if you simply have a great routine for a trick and props and then apply that, you are simply creative. The not so black/white issue is what happens when you then SELL that routine. I think permission is needed, and in the vast majority of cases, granted. So to paint all with one brush is, again, just not right.

My story was about one particular person, who hopefully will come to the right conclusion. Needless to say, bad people abound in the world. So it has nothing to do with, specificially, any faith of magician. We all make mistakes.

Every sinner has a future, every saint a past.

If you buy a trick and perform that trick in such a way that it fits your style is how I would describe my whole show, and I didn't think I was breaking any rules. I think the resale of somebody else's doctored-up magic trick is the real question. Is there such a place as a Christian Magic prop shop? If so, they must have a real good day job to support such a marginal business.
Al Angello

Al, it is apparent that you have never heard of Dock Haley Gospel Magic. Steve Varro runs a very successful Gospel Magic Sales Business, and he is doing well for himself. There are a lot of gospel products on the market. Another one is Duane Laflin, one of the greatest gospel magicians around and in high demand. He got so busy with his selling of gospel magic that he had to turn the business over to his daughter to run, and she does this full time.
As for the post by Magicref, why do you not just state who is ripping off whom, or was this just a thought that was not thought out by you all of the way? If you have a problem with another christian brother/sister that you feel is ripping someone off, go to that person and confront them. We have the Bible as a guide, please use it.

Rodney

How, specifically, is what apparent and to who?