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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts 
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We have found threads on stealing and threads on ethics in magic here in the Café. Most of the stealing threads are about dealers and magic companies putting out copies…
But what about magicians that see a magician on television, a performance video or DVD, or download video off the internet? Or see them perform it in a venue? Do magicians have the right to do another magicians unpublished routine almost word for word just because the viewed it one of the above situations???
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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dpe666 Inner circle 2895 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-22 14:01, bishthemagish wrote: No. End of discussion.  |
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bsears Inner circle Cincinnati, Ohio 1040 Posts
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I had an amateur coming into one of my restaurant gigs to watch me work. Afterwards, he would go to the local shop and describe what I had performed to see if he could buy it.
I didn't care for that. 
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dpe666 Inner circle 2895 Posts
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While that can be frustrating, that is really not the same thing. We are talking about UNPUBLISHED routines. I read the original post as "If magician A sees Magician B perform a piece of original material, does magician A have the right to perform that piece simply because he saw it?" The answer, of course, is NO! However, if someone sees me perform an effect out of SYZYGY or some other published source, then I can't stop that person from seeking that out.
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irishguy Special user Ohio 629 Posts
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It isn't just the stealing of moves that annoys me, but the complete cloning of routines. Look how many people do Blaine's routines exactly like him? Exact phrasing, exact handling, etc... Not that he is all that original, as per the original post, but neophyte magicians need to find their own thing and stop ripping off other magicians.
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts
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If you read Whit Haydn's remarks that are published in the manuscript for the Chicago Surprise, he has different views on copying other's routines and styles. Since he often posts here, I won't make his argument for him, but I do know that, at least during your beginning study, it is a good thing to copy. Newer magicians running around reinventing the wheel is often counterproductive. When I do change the patter or moves, at least I try to have studied the routine to figure out why words or moves were used in a particular place in the routine. It does not bother me if some newbie copies Blaine. Atfer all, I am using some of Mr. Haydn's and Ron Bauer's exact patter and routines. If this bothers magicians, sorry. I try not to use a routine in a way that affects other professional magicians economically in my area. Maybe the problem is that too many magicians are seeking professional careers before they are ready.
I agree it is clearly wrong to watch a magician perform and take their act or routine. If the effect is on the market, then the magician can buy that and perform it at his leisure.
Chris
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travisb Special user Vancouver, BC 546 Posts
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"What does it mean for a painter to paint in the manner of So-and-So or to actually imitate someone else? What's wrong with that? On the contrary, it's a good idea. You should constantly try to paint like someone else. But the thing is, you can't! You would like to. You try. But it turns out to be a botch...And at the very moment you make a botch of it that you're yourself." (Parmelin, Picasso: The Artist and His Model, and other Recent Works, 1965, p. 43)
-Travis |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-22 23:16, chrisrkline wrote: I did not talk about reinventing the wheel. The point is that it is easier to learn magic today than it has ever been before. Books DVD' video the lot... There are tons and tons of great ideas in books that are not being performed today just sitting there until a magician comes along and decides to learn something new - and not being done today. Why do we see so many magicians that are doing basically the same routines... And some doing it word for word... With no originality... Plus they copy routines that are unpublished... Quote:
On 2005-01-22 23:16, chrisrkline wrote: If it is published material fine - if it is unpublished material that is a different story... The point is that Don Alan performed on TV and it wasn't until the end that he did a video and published his routines. But he is the most copied magician of all time. People today do a lot of HIS stuff and HIS trademarks and have no idea where they came from. Ricky Jay performs on TV to and magicians of the sub culture seem to have no problem working out his effects and doing them. I have had problems like this as well as I said in other threads... Quote:
On 2005-01-22 23:16, chrisrkline wrote: If a magician buys a set of cups and balls does that give a person the right to every cups and balls routine published or unpublished? How about multiplying billiard balls? The shell game? There are tricks and effects on the market that professional magicians use and work out advanced routines. And just because a magician will buy one of those tricks or effects. How does that give them the right to an unpublished work? Don Alan had this problem with the chop cup. Yes he did not invent the chop cup. When it was invented by Chop Chop it was a stand up effect that Chop Chop did as an encore to his night club act. Don Alan changed it - and made it a close up effect and his routine made it his own... The Benson bowl was a stand up night club effect with no loads when it was invented by Roy Benson. Don Alan changed it into a close up effect and then added loads... Effects like this change and get better over years and thousands of performances. And then magicians see it on TV or in a venue and just take it. Not investing any of the time in twisting and working with the effect over sometimes years... Like the effects and ideas come easy to the performers and producers... I had a person ask me not to long ago "What’s the harm?" The three words that justify rip offs in magic are "What’s the harm"...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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DJG Inner circle 1300 Posts
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Quote:
But he is the most copied magician of all time. Actually I disagree, but that's not the point of my post. Personally I think it is a good idea for someone to copy another. I believe this is the easiest way to learn the subtleties of certain moves, timing and misdirection. It also allows them to eventually add their own personality after understanding. Otherwise it will seem unnatural and awkward to both performer and audience. Of course it is ALWAYS a good idea to secure permission from that person as well. Last, remember: Imitation is the highest form of flattery |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27306 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-23 01:43, David J. Greene wrote: 1) I disagree. What works for one person as engaging and effective may not work for anyone else. Quote:
It also allows them to eventually add their own personality after understanding. 2) No for the same reason. Can't graft on personality. Quote:
Otherwise it will seem unnatural and awkward to both performer and audience. 3) agreed. easy to tell copyist from originator. Quote:
Of course it is ALWAYS a good idea to secure permission from that person as well. 4) Tell that to ANYONE doing ANY version of my coins across. Quote:
Last, remember: Imitation is the highest form of flattery 5) Does this mean it's okay for others to fool around with your significant other?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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chrisrkline Special user Little Rock 965 Posts
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Glen, when I said effects, I meant marketed routines. I hope I have been clear over the last several months that I would never support using someone’s routine simply by watching it.
I think that anyone who becomes more proficient has to adapt routines to fit their own personality and will begin to develop their own material. I think that is inevitable. I was only questioning whether the majority of newer magicians need, or gain any benefit from, trying to develop new ideas. I am simply stating my take on Mr. Haydn's position, which I feel has tremendous merit. I think it is all well and good to hypothesis how well we would all do if we put in the effort to be creative, but the reality is that for many of us newer magicians, we do better to use a well developed routine someone else came up with. I am more entertaining if I use Mr. Haydn's Chicago Surprise or Mongolian Pop-Knot or Mr. Bauer's Fair and Sloppy almost as written than if I sit down and, from scratch, write up my own patter and try to invent my own effects. Maybe in a few years that will change and I will begin to blossom creatively, but if I do, it is because of my study of well-crafted routines and effects already on the market. That study requires actual performances in front of spectators. But the routines should be either marketed or done with permission.
Chris
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-23 01:43, David J. Greene wrote: If we are talking about a published work then there is no real problem. But if we are talking about unpublished works performed by the magician for entertainment in some venue or on a web site or on TV... Etc... That doesn't give anyone the rights to the performance material. And seeming unnatural and awkward to both the performer and the audience the first few times a routine is performed is very natural. But I see little difference in the art of performance between a routine that was published... And performing a rip off routine that wasn't... Quote:
On 2005-01-23 01:43, David J. Greene wrote: I see this as nothing more than another line to justify the right to copy and steal other magicians unpublished routines... Flattery is like perfume it is sometimes nice to smell but don't ever swallow it!!! I also can't see how being a copy cat and doing other peoples work can get anyone anywhere without adding your own personal slant on the published routines magicians do! I have seen quite a few Bill Malone clones out there doing his lines and his act... Having the DVD may give them a performance right in a way but why do another person's act? Plus anything that is a copy is not worth what the original is. Or the fee the original will make...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts
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Travis thank you so much for that quote! That is priceless stuff!
Quote:
You should constantly try to paint like someone else. But the thing is, you can't! You would like to. You try. But it turns out to be a botch...And it's at the very moment you make a botch of it that you're yourself." Picasso Nails it dead on how we ALL grow up and learn from parents, schoolmates, teachers and yes, other performers. I have new respect for Mr. Picasso. (and his botching!) Doug
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-23 09:28, chrisrkline wrote: Thanks for clearing that up chrisrkline I think we agree on a lot in magic... I just want to make things clear in the fact that with published effects to perform them it is OK.. But unpublished effects... I see a problem in that...
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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DJG Inner circle 1300 Posts
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Jonathan:
Quote:
1) I disagree. What works for one person as engaging and effective may not work for anyone else. I understand your opinion. Again I will restate "... Personally I think..." It is, and remains, my opinion. Quote:
2) No for the same reason. Can't graft on personality. I was refering solely to moves needed for an effect. I have always said one should add their own motivation and patter to ANY effect. Quote:
3) agreed. easy to tell copyist from originator. Too me, this is like someone trying to tell a joke they just heard and forgetting the punch line. Quote:
4) Tell that to ANYONE doing ANY version of my coins across. Forgive my ignorance but where can I find your version? I have been doing one for years I believe is original, and if it even resembles yours, I will gladly stand up and ask your permission. I mean this will all due respect, and forgive me if it sounds sarcastic... Quote:
5) Does this mean it's okay for others to fool around with your significant other? Normally I would make light of this at my Wife's expense. But seeing how she's standing over my shoulder...
Glenn: Quote:
I see this as nothing more than another line to justify the right to copy and steal other magicians unpublished routines... Flattery is like perfume it is sometimes nice to smell but don't ever swallow it!!! You are reading too much into what I wrote. Ideally this is true. But ideally one will have already secured all the proper permission for the creator. I agree - if it's unpublished, it is probably done so for a reason. For the record I have always stood up for the rights of creators. I would never, nor encourage anyone else to steel, borrow, or use anyone else's routine without expressed permission. I also think express permission (at least for the moves involved) is implied when you purchase an INSTRUCTIONAL (not just performance) video and/or book. I have seen many instructional videos claim just because you bought and watched the video doesn't give you permission to use the effects contained within. This is BS...otherwards why would you have released the video in the first place? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27306 Posts
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Perhaps we can agree about this then;
The script as written is a great resource for learning a routine. As one acquires some experience performing the routine one will find moments in the script that are suitable for more personal expression. Does this phrasing work for you? I hope my absurd application of 'imitation' makes it clear that one also requires permission, and even then it may not be appropriate.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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DJG Inner circle 1300 Posts
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I couldn't have said it better myself (and look I even tried
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David |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-23 12:09, David J. Greene wrote: Stealing unpublished works for a reason? Or is the reason just a justification for stealing unpublished works? Quote:
On 2005-01-23 12:09, David J. Greene wrote: As I said above I have nothing against using published ideas if the magician owns the product. The case I make is when a performer owns a prop and then reads the instructions. Plays with the effect then sees and video tapes a magician on TV. The magician on TV performs a different routine with the same prop that they themselves worked out. And at the moment it is unpublished material property of the performer that was performing it on the TV.. Does that give the sub culture magicians and students of magic the right to learn it from this video taped performance. And then go out and do that routine at shows or at magic club meetings... This performance is for entertainment... Not a lecture - not a book - not lecture notes - not an instructional DVD or video... Yet magicians in the sub culture - ripped off these routines that they saw on TV for entertainment - not instructional - it happened to Don Alan, Jack Pyle, Billy Bishop, Myself and to many more performing magicians to list including the big names in magic. Tommy Martin found and did the egg on the fan effect and it became his trademark. The copy cats of his day started to perform it so much that after years of imitation the agents that booked Tommy asked him to leave it out... One of his trademark effects. It wasn't his invention but he did work out HIS ROUTINE and did it so well it became his trademark effect... The rip off of this made the trademark not worth very much!
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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bishthemagish Inner circle 6013 Posts
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Quote:
On 2005-01-23 11:38, Xmosis wrote: I remember a movie about circus flyers that stared Tony Curtis as a young flyer - And Burt Lancaster as an older crippled flyer that was teaching Tony how to do the triple... The younger flyer said " Like my style I model it after you" The older flyer said " Then you will always be a second rater - invent your own style"! I feel that in the case of learning from instruction you can learn the ideas and still not copy. There is a fine line between learning a move and making it your own and just doing the move or the routine as a copy... The point above about a botched copy does not take into the fact - that there are copy artists that do copy a master work of art. Some are paid large sums of money to do so. It is rumored that some of the master works hanging in art museums are high class copies for security reasons... And you can copy a master of magic’s work... And it not be a botched performance. Don Alan was booked to do a three week gig for a company and another close up artist was booked to do three weeks for the same co... This was a 6 week gig and Don was booked the last three weeks of the six week gig... This close up Chicago magician performed - The chop cup - Sponge Ball - Big Nut- coins and Hat and other magic routines right out of Don's act for three weeks - before Don Alan came in for his three weeks... When Don Alan arrived and did his act - Don was more than just a little up set! I heard this story directly from Don Alan and I told this story to a sub culture magician about a year ago and the response was "What’s the harm"?
Glenn Bishop Cardician
Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs |
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DJG Inner circle 1300 Posts
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Quote:
Stealing unpublished works for a reason? Or is the reason just a justification for stealing unpublished works? I am not sure what you mean... If I am assuming correctly, what I meant was "Imitation is the highest form of flattery" is ideally true. Again, there is much room for interpretation. |
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Posted: Jan 22, 2005 07:01 pm 